New Episode - Joanna Nell shares how to be authentic in your writing and marketing

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Episode notes

How do you breathe life into a novel? Find out as we chat with internationally acclaimed author Joanna Nell about her latest release, 'Mrs Winterbottom Takes a Gap Year'. Joanna shares the journey she took, from conjuring the characters with divergent retirement dreams, to developing the classic three-act structure. We reveal the real-life conversation that sparked this novel and how Greek Mythology played a role in shaping the narrative.

We also delve into the challenges faced in finalising the draft. Joanna brings to light how an insightful suggestion from her publisher changed the story's trajectory and the significance of trusting your intuition while writing. We discuss the art of character backstory crafting and plot element incorporation without giving any spoilers away. We share how Joanna's wisdom helps us identify the balance between authenticity and reader expectations in a story.

Finally, we venture into the promotion of MRS WINTERBOTTOM TAKES A GAP YEAR. Joanna shares her journey from having grand literary aspirations to discovering the power of her own unique voice. She talks about appearing on a morning show, her experience, and the importance of ratings, reviews, and social media. As a bonus, Joanna reveals her next project, her progress, and the strategies she's planning to use. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation with Joanna Nell about the writing process, storytelling techniques, and getting your work out into the world.

Episode Chapters

(0:00:09) - Mrs Winterbottom's Gap Year Evolution

(0:07:16) - Retirement Plans and Compromises

(0:15:17) - Rejection and Transformation in Writing

(0:28:33) - Writing Process and Storytelling Techniques

(0:40:27) - Finding Authenticity in Writing and Promotion

(0:53:16) - Balancing Writing Authenticity and Reader Expectations

In the Intro

In this week's episode of Writes4Women, Pamela Cook mentions attending the launch of Key People Literary Management, led by her agent, John Rickmans, and Lou Johnson. Pamela also celebrates completing the revision of her manuscript, OUT OF THE ASHES, which is soon heading to the publisher and is a part of a series starting with BLACK WATTLE LAKE. She discusses her joy in returning to the world she created in these books and hints at working on another manuscript, BECAUSE YOU’RE MINE, based on feedback from writer friends. Additionally, she talks about her involvement in a Christmas anthology and the success of A COUNTRY VET CHRISTMAS, in various online categories.

Pamela then introduces Joanna Nell, the guest for the week. Joanna, an internationally bestselling author, doctor, and advocate for positive ageing, is celebrating the launch of her fifth novel, MRS WINTERBOTTOM TAKES A GAP YEAR.

Transcript

So I actually just really really want to get onto this week's guest, because this is going to be a fantastic chat about a wonderful new book that I was at the launch for last week. My guest is Joanna Nell and the book is MRS WINTERBOTTOM TAKES A GAP YEAR. So if you don't know of Jo, let me tell you a little bit about her. But I'm sure that most listeners to the podcast will know of Jo because she has been on a couple of times. Mrs Winterbottom is her fifth novel, a fifth published novel. I should say she has others, like we all do, in the draw.

Jo's career is just going from strength to strength and Jo is an internationally published bestselling author of five novels. She's also a doctor and an advocate for positive ageing. Her short fiction has won numerous awards and been published in magazines, journals and short story anthologies, including award-winning Australian writing. She's also written for the Sydney Morning Herald, spectrum and Sunday Life magazine. Originally from the UK, Joanna lives on Sydney's northern beaches in a mostly empty nest with her husband and a creaky Labrador, Margot, who is absolutely gorgeous.

Jo is also a member of my writing group, The Inkwell, not the writing group that I own, but the group that I am a member of. We're in the same group, The Inkwell, and I can attest to the fact that she has a wicked sense of humour and an enormous amount of heart, both of which you'll find in all of her books. Jo's books are the sort of books that you can sit down and enjoy and you'll need a box of tissues by your side so you can dry both the happy and the sad tears, and I have to say MRS WINTERBOTTOM TAKES A GAP YEAR.

It will be mainly happy tears, because there are some hysterically funny moments in this book. Because I've been there from the conception of this book, I wanted to talk to Jo about the evolution of the story and the characters. They have come a long way from their origins shall we say more about that in a moment, but there's so much we can learn from Jo's process and her experience as a writer overall and in this book in particular.

And in fact, the last time that Jo was on the podcast, we chatted about our respective revision processes and it's one of the most listened to episodes of the podcast. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, I'll put a link in the show notes. You can pop back and have a listen. So for now, sit back, grab a cuppa or put your headphones on and your runners on and get ready to be inspired in this chat with bestselling author Joanna Nell on the Convo Couch. So lovely to have you back Joanna.

06:05 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Thank you very much. It's wonderful to be here, Pam.

06:11 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Now, Jo, before we get started, I really wanted to chat to you today about the evolution of MRS WINTERBOTTOM TAKES A GAP YEAR because, you know I've just said in the intro, I've been there from the beginning of this book and seen how it started for you and how the plot and the characters evolved and there is quite a story there. But before we get into that, could you maybe just tell the listeners what the book is about? Tell us about Mrs Winterbottom.

06:37 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yes, so Mrs Winterbottom is actually Dr Winterbottom, Heather, and she's been a GP in practice with her husband, Alan, for 40 years. So they've been living and working together and they're finally approaching retirement, they're about to hang up their stethoscope for good and they've been so focused on making sure the practice is being sold and sorting out their patients that on the first morning of their retirement, when they sit down together, having assumed that they're both on the same page and want the same things from this wonderful new chapter in the life, they seem to discover that they actually have very different visions of what retirement looks like.

Heather dreams of escaping, she wants adventure. She wants to go off to Greece and sail around the Greek islands, and Alan wants to turn their back garden into a small farm. He wants to grow his own vegetables and keep chickens which are going to be named after his ex-girlfriend and even plant a vineyard, and this is really not on Heather's radar at all. So the central question in the novel is, you know, does Heather get to stay behind and watch Alan grow his vegetables? Does Alan tag along as extra baggage on Heather's trip around the Greek islands, or is there a third way?

07:52 - Pamela Cook (Host)

You know when they each do what they want to do, but on their own, as we are women of a certain age and I know you've recently retired from your work as a GP. But it's funny because in my household my husband John, is keen to do lots of travelling and I love travelling too, but I have this horror of actually going on one of those grey nomad trips with him, because I hate his driving. I can't stand sitting next to him in the car. I always feel that I'm going to, you know, probably not come out alive. I know that's probably one of the things he wants to do. So every now and then, you know this will come up in conversation and it's like no, not going there, it's just too hard. So I'm sure there's lots of people out there that are going through the same thing as Heather and Alan.

08:39 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

That's right, and you only have to look on social media to see that people are out there that you know they are taking all sorts of, you know, golden gap years.

Think back to the absolute kernel of the idea. Where do you think that came from?

08:51 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

It's really hard to say with this one. Some books, as you know, Pam, you know there's an instant where the idea comes to you. And the last book I had, you know I can. I know exactly where I was and what it was and the whole plot came to me, you know, in an instant.

09:06

This one was more of an evolution and it started, I think, originally with the conversation I had with my husband, John, actually probably three years ago or so, when he likes to look at boats on the internet, and I asked him what he was looking at and he said, oh, I think what we should do when we retire is we should sell the house, buy a big boat and sail the way up into the sunset, and I certainly that sounded like a very attractive idea. But then I thought, no, actually that's not what I want to do. Firstly, I do get a bit seasick, but also I sort of envisage maybe more of a tree change and a sea change, buying an acreage and keeping chickens, growing vegetables actually. So it's probably the other way around in our case. And you know, initially we had a laugh about it and then I started to worry. I thought, well, no, what if we really do want different things. You know who gets to compromise.

09:59

And combined with that, I think, was myself coming to that stage. You know, retirement is on my horizon. As you know, that's a work in progress for me, you know it's. I'm in that transition out of my day job and I think it was the pandemic and a few health issues that sort of had me thinking about retirement and what my life would look like if I was no longer a doctor. You know, it's so much part of my identity. Who would I be? And this is what I was exploring through my character, Heather's eyes, and then the grief spit. Well, we'll talk about that later, I think. But at the time my daughter was studying ancient history in classics at uni in her first year and suddenly I was, you know, immersed in this world with her of of, you know, Greek mythology and Homer and you know, and it was all very exciting and new to me and all these disparate ideas, you know, that kind of come together when we create a story, you know, because they're quite different, these ideas.

10:58 - Pamela Cook (Host)

You know, like I know, that you did lots of reading around the whole Greek mythology thing and you know, like you say, you had this idea for this couple who are kind of wrangling about what they're going to do in retirement. So I just love this whole idea of the way our brain, our subconscious, kind of works to piece these ideas together. It's really quite amazing, isn't it.

11:18 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, sometimes there'll be an idea, and I think that you know it's not for lack of ideas. I think that, like a lot of writers, I'm seeing ideas all the time, but sometimes they're not enough to hang a whole book on. You know, it can just be, it might be enough for a short story, or it might be enough for a character or one sort of subplot, if you like. But you sometimes need to wait, I think, for the other layers to arrive, and you know it just maybe needs a little bit more time to come together sometimes.

11:46 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Yeah, definitely. Now, Jo, this book for you was not written under contract so you had some time, didn't you? But you, you know it probably wasn't as urgent, perhaps, as some of your other books. So was the writing process like that whole creative process at the beginning, pulling the ideas together? Was that quite different for you from the others?

12:06 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I think it always starts with the character. For me, you know. So the characters came quite quickly and they're, you know, fully fleshed out, not necessarily in that sort of full bio. I wouldn't know what colour eyes they had or you know what they eat for breakfast, but certainly what had happened to them you know in their younger years or what their motivations for behaving their way were. But they're basically sort of sitting around waiting to have something to do, and I'm always aware of that three act structure.

I think it's now ingrained into the back of my brain. I don't need to necessarily sit down and write out the whole plot in a synopsis form at the beginning, although that might have been quite useful in this case but I know roughly where the beats are going to be, you know how it starts, what's the inciting incident and I sort of I suppose I'm, as I'm going along, I'm thinking of these things. I think the approach I'm going to take from now on, because of the issues I did have with this particular book, is to start with a blurb, you know, like that back cover and write that down, and if it sounds like it makes sense and it would entice me as a reader to pick up this book, then I think that that's a good place to start, rather than the synopsis necessarily and I didn't do without that I thought I had the premise, but actually it turned out that when you know came to really hang that on the plot, it didn't quite work.

13:36 - Pamela Cook (Host)

That's such a great idea, isn't it writing the blurb first and you know, I've spoken to a few authors on the podcast who do do that and because it is that you're getting to the heart of what's appealing to the reader, isn't it? Because, of course, the blurb is like a marketing kind of exercise. Really, what is the reader going to love about this book? So I think that's a great idea.

13:55 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

And I think that premise is everything. Certainly my most successful books have had the simplest premise. In a way, you know it's something that's an immediate hook. It's very simple to say in a sentence or two sentences and I think it's very easy to get caught up in the writing and the characters and have the plot sort of go along and you know what it's about. But actually when you try to put that across it's not quite. You know, it's not quite the hook that you hoped it would be.

14:28 - Pamela Cook (Host)

As you say, you had the premise of this retiring couple and what they were going to do with their golden years and you had the kind of Greek mythology aspect back at the beginning. Can you tell us about the kind of process for writing that very first draft and how that was for you?

14:45 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yes, okay, I'm trying to think back to how that was, because I knew that the characters and the setting so well, the beginning of the book really, you know, came together very quickly. The humour was in, you know, the energy was in this couple and their marriage, which has come to a bit of a crossroads, it's in a little bit of a crisis, and all the heat and the energy was there. But I think I went down the wrong rabbit hole really, I think the second half of the book. Initially I had my character staying in the same village. She was certainly, you know, fed up with her husband and I knew that she was going to meet another man. I won't say what happens, but I knew that she was going to use her relationship with another man to sort of examine what's going on in her own marriage, without necessarily having an intimate affair. And she met this very charming retired professor who paid a lot of attention, and she becomes rather embroiled in his life and ends up helping him to write his magnum opus. She breaks a few sort of professional boundaries in helping him do this and trying to ignore the fact that his eccentricity is sort of really turning into dominion. So it was quite a different story and in that second half it began to lose its energy.

I certainly finished it and I probably wrote three or four drafts of it, but it just, and I was so far into it and I was so far invested in it that I just kept rewriting it and hoping that I would sort of feel that, you know, just get that feeling that it was the right story. But oh look, I was just ignoring that little voice on my shoulder that says really not sure that this works. You know how are you going to write this into the blurb? And I was excited about it and I, you know, did a lot of research on this classic professor and I told him he'll probably come in a later book actually, oh good, and so he.

You know, it was probably about four drafts and several months of work that I thought that this was finished and that was what I submitted. So I had done the usual things of doing the first draft very quickly, printing it out, putting it aside for a couple of weeks, going back, reading it as a reader and then, you know, going through it again with pens and making suggestions, but I didn't really change. I was changing things on the line, but I wasn't seeing the bigger picture. I wasn't really standing back and working out why it wasn't really working, so that went off to my publisher.

17:25 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I do remember this time, Jo, and I remember how excited you were about all the Greek angles of this story, you know, and it was just, it was great because we'd go along to the Inquela writing group, we were getting these fabulous insights into Greek mythology and, you know, classical Greek kind of story and it was amazing, it was so good and we were kind of being pulled along with you and this story like, yes, this is great, this is great. Yeah, but tell us what happened when you sent it to your publisher?

17:57 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Nothing. That was the thing you know. So we went by and I didn't hear back. Usually if I've been very lucky to have the same publisher of this that has checked for all my five books, and that's really sort of quite unusual in publishing. So I think we know each other's processes quite well and I hadn't heard anything back in the first few days. Usually when she's picked it up and had a quick look, she'll, you know, send me something encouraging, and it was. It was sort of radio silence really. And then I got the email on a Friday evening and I remember opening that now and it was sort of five o'clock on a Friday, which is a really good time to deliver bad news, I think.

And she was saying you're not going to like me for this. While there's much to love in this, I really feel that there's a bigger story in this, and what she was alluding to was that Heather had spent a lot of time talking to an elderly patient of hers who'd become her friend and really, you know, confident. Why don't you just go off, go and do a Shirley Valentine and go on your own? So Rebecca had picked up on this Shirley Valentine reference and she said why doesn't she go off to Greece and do a Shirley Valentine? And it's really not what I wanted to hear, because what everybody wants to hear, once you've submitted something to someone to read to you, just right here, this is brilliant, this is fantastic, you've got it completely right. We'll make a couple of small changes on the line and then straight to publication.

But that wasn't it and I was disappointed, to say the least. But I was actually more disappointed in myself, I think, than Rebecca, because she really just told the truth, and I was disappointed in myself because I'd ignored that little voice inside. And this has happened to me once before. You probably remember this came with my second book, THE LAST VOYAGE OF MRS HENRY PARKER. So I wrote two drafts of a book and then realised it wasn't working. And I was being mentored by the lovely Valerie Parv at the time and she said to me and it was a Friday five o'clock phone call and she said to me well, you'll know when it's the right story, because you'll feel it. You know, you'll feel it viscerally. And actually I do make a few references in the book to sort of gestalt or that sort of gut feeling that you have about something. And I knew that that had been missing when I'd been writing this the first half of the book.

I did have that and then I lost it in the second half of the book. So I really, in effect, had wasted months of work. Well, I should have shared it earlier. And you know, over that weekend I thought about it and I thought I can't do this, the whole Greece thing. I've never written a book overseas. You know, it's been years since I've been to Greece. I can't do this, it's just, it's just too big. But of course you know, the weekend goes by, and by Monday morning I was living quite a different frame of mind.

Yeah, look once I thought about it. I thought she's absolutely right. You know, this is an opportunity to tell a much more exciting story, and I decided to. I made a conscious decision to turn all those feelings of disappointment and anger, and everything else, into excitement about starting a new project, because we all love starting a new project, don't we?

And I think my writing group helped. I think there are a few WhatsApp messages that went backwards and forwards, and by now my husband knows all the right things to say, so he poured me a glass of wine and said there there. You know, we've been here before and I knew that if I'd done it once, I could do it again. And actually it was only half the book, it wasn't the whole book. The first half of the book just needed a few tweaks. But basically I was writing another 40 to 50,000 words as opposed to, you know, another 90,000. So by Monday morning I was so excited and I was able to reply to that email saying yeah, I'm right on it.

22:02 - Pamela Cook (Host)

So that's a major turnaround in a couple of days too. But isn't it always the way? You know, when we get this, you know whether it's a rejection, or you know, sometimes we might get a nice rejection, and I guess that in a sense, it was kind of a bit of rejection for you in terms of the book that you've admitted was like no, we don't want this particular book, we like bits of it, but we don't like the whole thing. So it is really a matter, isn't it, of going through that process. I think you've got to let yourself feel all those feelings and then just sit with it and you know. Just then think, okay, what, what is there in this, this advice or this feedback that I can really use sometimes?

22:42 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I think that in this attempt we will say take some advice but don't take it over. You know, if you really believe in something, you have to stick to your guns. But there might have been, you know, bigger, more established authors who perhaps the publisher wouldn't have had the courage to say no, we need a different story, and you know, and it wouldn't have worked. So luckily, I have this trusting relationship with my publisher. She trusts my process and I trust her insight and her ideas.

23:13 - Pamela Cook (Host)

So I think that that's where, you know, it's a sort of symbiotic relationship, as you say, trusting their experience and their kind of knowledge of what they read is going to respond to. But do you think that you're a little bit daunted by the Shirley Valentine kind of reference?

23:31 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I was and, look, I love that. I'm sure we all know that film and I, one of the things I did was went back and watched that film and it was 1989. You remember Pauline Collins and Tom Compton on that boat and look, it was a little bit dated. Of course, it's more than 30 years old. But there was still something really joyful in seeing that woman not necessarily take her gloves off, but you know, just to you know, step outside herself and, just you know, discover a new identity.

And it was actually a stage play and initially it was by Willie Russell who wrote Educated Reacher, and it was initially a monologue. I like it and I think it would have been fantastic to see on the stage. But when I watched it, what struck me was that the husband I can't even remember his name, we're so one-dimensional he was just so awful and I felt that Alan needed his redeeming features. And you know, I think during the book I wanted to make him a relatable or a sympathetic character and I think hopefully we come to understand why he's so wrapped up in his nostalgia and why he's sort of reluctant to move on. So, look, I like to think of that.

But of course I've also been down the whole ancient Greece rabbit hole and I was sort of wrapped up with this idea of Odyssey, which is this sort of journey of home coming after you know, an adventure and it struck me that men always have the adventures here.

So I wanted to do a female Odyssey and, you know, perhaps she needed to go off and have adventures and you know, and and to whether she returns to Alan or not. I won't give her any spoilers away, but you know. So I started calling it Shirley Valentine meets Homer's Odyssey. I kept that tagline to myself because I didn't think that publishing her would be like that much, and that's basically what I kept in my mind and I had so much fun with it. It was, you know, it was a lot of fun to write and some of the feedback I got was that that second half in Greece was, you know, it really flowed and you know you could tell the energy and the excitement that I had.

25:46 - Pamela Cook (Host)

So you took yourself off on a virtual journey to Greece. You know, you said that was one of the things that you were worried about. You hadn't been to Greece for a long time and you hadn't set a book overseas or anywhere like that before. How did you go about that then? I mean, you've done all the research on kind of ancient Greece, but what did you do to kind of immerse yourself in the Greece that Heather visits?

26:09 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I have been to Greece once and I thought I hadn't been to Greece since, well, since just before my husband and I got married. I should think we went one more time. At that time, coincidentally, about that time I found an old travel journal that I'd written in 1997, when we went on a Ionian flotilla holiday before we were married, and I'd written out this journal. I kept a diary written, a journal pasted, I mean literally, you know, printed out photographs and pasted. It was in the days before word processing and, you know, I gave this to my husband as a present, and I kept it. So looking back through that gave me a lot of the feeling of being there.

In fact, I used some of the places in the journal, places we'd actually been in the book. There was one particular little bay where there's a scene where Heather is stranded on a boat, and it's in a little deserted bay on the northeast coast of the island of Ithaca, and that's actually one of the places where John and I spent the night there. So I was able to draw on that. And then, of course, you use the authors, writers, best friends, which are, you know, Google Earth and YouTube. It's really incredible what is on there now, so I was able to walk along the modern streets of these small little villages on the island of Ithaca and Cephalonia.

And at one point in the book, heather takes a trip up a rocky path up to what is known as it's a sort of tourist destination. Some of the excavations they say is Odysseus' palace. It's just a debate whether it is. But she takes this rocky path up there and I googled on YouTube videos of this and I actually found people who were videoing their dirt there, so I knew what the path looked like, I knew what the plants were and so what they would smell like.

You know, we have a Greek restaurant down the road. We went and had a Greek meal so I could, you know, remember the taste and smell. So I think it's drawing on lots of different sources and I had this wonderful virtual journey back to Greece and I'd love to do a retrospective now and go back in person and do that.

28:23 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Oh, I think you must. I think I have to take my writing group with me, essential, and we can all take Mrs Winterbottom and get lots of pics for social media. It'd be great. So, once you kind of got into that second phase of the writing I know you'd written numerous drafts, but this was kind of the second phase in terms of the changes that you're making to the story. And you said you kind of gave yourself permission to go there, didn't it? You know that's all right, I'm going to do this.

What point did you get to? You know, we're talking about that kind of little voice of intuition, that little gut instinct thing. Did it take you very long to get to the point where you thought, yep, this is it, I've got it.

29:01 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

No, I think it was probably there all along and in fact I the previous version had felt I was wrestling at a little fish, you know, trying to suck it into the wrong shape, all in but this one, I think. I just sat back and thought, okay, I'm really just going to let this come from somewhere that's a little bit more subconscious and not try so hard. I think sometimes we really try, don't we? And you know you have to keep going when times get a bit tough. But I think there is a line to be drawn where sometimes you just have to let the subconscious, you know, and let the imagination do what it wants to do.

So of course I had to take the character. I already had Heather, and so what she did and the way she acted and reacted to things that happened there was totally within character. But I knew her so well by that stage so even putting her in a brand new setting, meeting new people, I sort of knew how she would react to that. So, yeah, I'm going to say that.

30:09 - Pamela Cook (Host)

That second half came very quickly and you know you mentioned before that you were trying to make sure that Alan didn't come across as this one-dimensional kind of, you know, cardboard character. And of course we do find out a lot as the story unfolds about why Alan, you know, does want to stay there, what his life has been like before in the village and his kind of. I don't want to give away too much but I love the way that you kind of weave that backstory through. You know the plot. Have you got any advice for people who might be listening, because I know this is something that writers often struggle with. How much information do we give about the character's previous life and where do we give it?

30:47 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I think I've recently read Story Genius by Lisa Kahn. I think we both read that and what I took away from that which I probably was doing subconsciously with this was that, you know, she says essentially the story starts before the story starts, if you like that, you know, one of the things she suggests is that you write three scenes from the character's past. You know three pivotal scenes that could be something that happened to them in childhood, in young adulthood, or something that's very pivotal, that directs their motivation. It's really that they keep coming back to that, trying to sort of, you know, heal that wound if you like. And so I don't think you have to know every single thing about their backstory, but there will be certain scenes that I don't always write flashbacks as whole scenes.

You know there are some people I think Charlotte Woods-Wong says you know you've said in the least number of words that you can, but I am one where I actually do like to write a whole scene as a flashback, and it may be no more than two or three that are very pivotal and instrumental, but they have to sort of advance the story as well. They can't just put a random thing, but it may be explaining something that's just happened in the story but also, you know, perhaps providing a bridge across to the next thing that happened so you start to understand a little bit about them. But it's a thorny issue and I know that we're forever discussing how and, to put it in backstory, how much is too much. You know there's the rules. You know, don't put any in for the first three chapters. First 10,000 words. You know, be sparing, but I think that sometimes it's essential to put it in. But the story may dictate how you do that, whether it's a separate scene or whether it's just a thought or a memory or something that's triggered.

32:50 - Pamela Cook (Host)

And it depends so much on the character that you're working with, doesn't it? And the situation that you find them in at the beginning of the story. As to you know where you mean, you don't want to info dump a whole lot of backstory at the beginning, but it might be a case that there's little mention in the first three chapters. You know that. Do break that kind of rule, if you like.

33:10 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, that's right. I think that's where you obviously have an info dump. Maybe you just know some little hints or a little seeds there I think. I think the reader needs to know something, otherwise you know there could be scratching, has anything going on? Why are we in this situation? And I think we need a little, a little. You know a little bit, maybe interesting if you know what the current setup is. So I think it's a case of, if you say, feeling your way and being dictated by the character.

33:43 - Pamela Cook (Host)

And of course, Jo, you had the whole kind of Greek odyssey type thing to fall back on as a beautiful theme running through the story. And again, we don't want to give away spoilers, but you mentioned before, you know, this idea of homecoming. So in a sense I know that you felt at the time that a lot of that reading and that writing was kind of wasted. But I do think that it's kind of layered into the story, isn't it? You know, even if it's in a much smaller amount, it kind of forms like a backbone type thing for the story itself and for the themes that you've written about.

34:15 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, thank you. I think that was something that occurred later. Actually, it just shows that you know, as you do, as you get further on with your draft, you can still it's never too late to add in another, another layer. So I think that sort of the you know, that idea of that theme following a female odyssey didn't really occur until till. It was really quite well established in the story and I was quite conscious that I'd done way too much. That rabbit hole had been a very deep one and I'd read way too much. I'd become completely obsessed. Actually, over the summer I wrote it and it was delightful. I've done almost like a DIY degree in classics and myself, and it's opened up a whole new world for me.

But I had to be careful not to overload the narrative with those references. I think you know, even in the final editing stages we were cutting back and cutting back, but I did fight for a few references to remain. But I just wanted it to be more of a subtle thread than you know. This is what it is, you know, and hanging everything on that. So I hope that that worked and I hope that you know I've already had a couple of people say, oh, I'm just going to go off and read the Odyssey now, so that's something I hadn't done before I started researching. It's actually a love story, a love story between a husband and a wife, and I think it's far more digestible maybe than the early addon. You know, it was written nearly 3000 years ago and yet some of the themes of that are still so relevant to modern day life.

35:59 - Pamela Cook (Host)

It's really interesting, isn't it? You know the whole idea of the story and how it's just through the generations and centuries. We're all just so attracted to the story and with that one, to a love story.

36:11 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, exactly.

36:12 - Pamela Cook (Host)

So one of the fabulous features, Jo, of your writing is always the humour in your books, and you know, I think yours are some of the few books that I actually sit there and read and laugh out loud. It's very hard to find a book that can make you laugh and make you cry in other parts, and I really appreciate that about your writing, but for you it's the author. When you're writing those scenes where the humour is really coming to the fore, are you kind of really conscious of that? Is that coming out naturally for you, or is that something that you are really working over and over on the page?

36:49 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Look, I think it has to come naturally. I mean, I suppose you can manufacture a situation where the human naturally happens. But you know I'm like Domestos for jokes. You know I can kill 99.9% of all jokes, so I'm not someone who can tell a joke. I tend to find that comedy more accidentally in just normal interactions, particularly between a husband and a wife who've been married for a long time, there's just a lot of humour and it is sad. You know some of the books you know feature some sad things that happen and the fact that Heather and Alan's marriage is very rocky. It's quite sad, but there's a lot of humour to be had in that too, and that's maybe something I naturally do.

I try to turn things around and find maybe that's the doctor thing. We tend to have a rather black sense of humour ourselves, which is a self protective mechanism, but I think we also try to make people feel better, I suppose. And laughing makes people feel better and it's a fundamental way of communicating. If you think about babies smile before they can even talk. So I think we have a human need to laugh and smile and sometimes the world feels very a place where there isn't much laughter. Particularly at the moment it feels as though it might be flippant to find humour or comedy. But you know, in a way I, you know, want my books to be entertaining. I want to take the reader to places that are, you know, quite difficult, difficult things to deal with, but also sort of hand them a rope to lift them back out again. So I try not to make it too conscious. I think it's like the co-coach, and I'll say, before you go out, take one thing off, and I think it's a little bit like that, I think it's.

You know, if you might have gone push the joke, push the humorous bit a little bit too far, it's maybe take it back a step too. So there's something that I think my husband's very funny, and some of the things he said he's not Alan.

John is not Alan, but some of the things he says and his observations. You know he sees the humour in life as well, so there's probably no surprise I chose somebody like that as my life partner.

39:24 - Pamela Cook (Host)

No, absolutely, and I can attest to that. John is a very funny man and you as well have that beautiful, sometimes on purpose.

39:31 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Sometimes on purpose.

39:32 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Yes, which is even better, Jo. Five books in terms of publishing and I know you've written other books previously. You've written short stories, but five novels in. If you think back to yourself as a debut author, how do you feel that you have a sense of are going now in terms of being quite assured of yourself in terms of what you're writing, your abilities, if you like, but also in terms of how you want your books to be perceived and how that allows you to deal with your publisher and other people in the publishing industry?

40:18 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yes. So I'm not convinced I have short and controlled. I'm not in control of my career. Sometimes it feels like it's controlling me.

I think when I started out I had great literary aspirations. I'm writing short stories and the writing I was focusing on being quite clever and wanting to make grand statements and write the beautiful sentences and probably be quite literary, as a lot of people aim to start out. But that wasn't my, I don't think that was my real voice and I think that, if anything, I've just the word. My touchstone word that I keep coming back to is authenticity, and that means, in the writing too, that I, if I'm not, if I'm being inauthentic with what I'm writing, I think if I'm trying too hard or something doesn't feel right, it's not on brand. For me, my brand is what it is and I have to lean into that because that's my strength and that's what my publisher likes, that's what the readers have come to like and expect. And so initially I was, you know, I sort of felt that books were being done down a little bit, you know, or sort of marketed perhaps in a way that was a little bit sort of frivolous. But actually I've grown into that and I'm really proud of the books that I've written and that's what I want to keep writing. And of course, you know we want to progress and you know, and explore our creative side.

But I think it's about keep coming back to my authentic voice. What do I love to read, what do I like to read? To keep pushing yourself a little bit outside your comfort zone each time. I think you know, the advice I often give to new readers is to say if you've got two ideas one feels safe and one feels really frightening and scary and go for the frightening, scary one. Be bold, you know, because sometimes it won't work, but a lot of the time it will and it will, you know, be the right decision. And I think that authenticity also extends to doing the promotion and stuff. Initially that was just something that was so outside my comfort zone, that speaking in public and self promotion and being on social media and doing interviews and things that terrified me. You know, at the beginning I was almost going to hand back my first advance, going I can't do this, I can't do this. We're frozen.

42:59 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Yeah, you're back now. I'm sure I've been on the internet.

43:02 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

So you know, almost, you know, running interviews, but as a doctor, one-on-one you know, to actually speak to an audience and things, and I think who would want to listen to what I have to say? But it's a case of being, you know, just being myself, you know, being authentic. This is what I am. I'm trying not, I'm not trying to be something else. I'm, you know, not trying to be a Miles Franklin winner or a Booker Prize winner. I'm here, I'm writing for my readers, I'm writing that something hopefully brings, you know, joy and enjoyment to readers, but also, you know, sort of putting across my own view, particularly on that recurring theme of ages.

43:46 - Pamela Cook (Host)

And then age, yeah, yeah, which you always speak so beautifully about, Jo, and weaving to your stories so authentically. It's a great word, actually, and of course, this time around you've been on the morning show.

44:01 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

How was that? Usually, well, it was terrifying really, but really, you know, exciting. You know, one of the ways I've chosen to frame terror or, you know, being frightened or anxious, is that it feels the same as being excited. It's this bubbly tummy and everything, and that feels the same with your excitement or fear. So I chose to feel excited about going on live TV on the morning of the launch, usually on the day a book's released. You know it's quick, it's not nothing that happens really, it just goes out into the world.

But this time I was very lucky. I've had the last two books that have been published during lockdown, so there were really not a lot of you know launches and things. This time I had a TV interview and a launch on the same day and my mother was over from the UK visiting, so it was just, it was very special actually, and the TV show, the interview, lasts five minutes, which is the quickest five minutes of your life, and everybody is so nice. So if anybody's got this opportunity and they're really worried about it, don't be, you know, they're just lovely people and they're just doing their jobs too. So, no, it was very, very fun. Have you watched it Beth no.

45:17 - Pamela Cook (Host)

You're going to say no.

45:18 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I think my parents have about a dozen times and I made everybody at home promise that they weren't watching it and they nodded and winked. No we're not going to watch it, so no, I don't think there's much to be gained by watching it back.

45:32 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Although I can assure you it's fabulous. But just along those lines, Jo. Do you read reviews and do you check into good reads? Because I know this is such a contentious issue for writers. Some people love to get on there and check it regularly. Others just will not even have a bar of it. Where do you sit on that spectrum?

45:52 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I've sort of swung from reading everything to reading almost nothing, which is a shame when people write really beautiful reviews and friends or my husband often reads through, picks those out and forwards them to me. So I do see the really lovely one, but I just felt that there was nothing to be gained really, other than making me feel personally horrible when you read a horrible review and you might have nine beautiful reviews and then the one not so good one and it's human nature to look for that negative. So when people tag me in reviews, I read them and there's been some lovely reviews and I want to thank everybody who has left a review or a rating which has been positive. Thank you so much. And I do read a lot of those, but I generally try to stay away from good reads and I think that's just something that has come with experience and I would encourage new authors as well to maybe consider that as an option.

Yeah it's a space for readers, I think, to give that you know their true opinions of a book. It's not a place for authors to necessarily, you know, have to focus on other things. not everybody's going to love your book, I think that's. The majority of people do like it, that's great, but I think that readers need to be free to, you know, give their honest opinions.

47:21 - Pamela Cook (Host)

And, as you say, it's always the mud, that kind of sticks, isn't it? You know, they're the things we think about at 2am in the morning.

47:28 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, I don't know if you have an opinion of that. I know we do sometimes. I don't check.

47:34 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I hardly ever check good reads. Every now and then I might for some reason, just check the books are still up or whatever.

47:40 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, but yeah.

47:42 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I'm a bit with you. It can be crushing just to read one negative review, even though there are many others. You know great ones, we've got a good rating or whatever, so you've really got to look after yourself.

47:55 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

There are some authors who do go on and you know, and make entertainment out of their one star reviews, and it can be quite funny Sally Hepworth is very funny at doing this but there have been other authors, I think, who sort of put together a night of the one star or some reviews or something and actually did a whole event out of it and that's one way to do it. But I think, yeah, because it's a very personal thing, and that's just what I've learned has worked best for me and Jo, you've got those beautiful books sitting on your shelf behind you there.

48:27 - Pamela Cook (Host)

We've got the gorgeous covers and Mrs Winterbottom is in the same vein, but I think this was one that there was a bit more toing and froing over the cover because you got many. I remember you got lots and lots of options with this. So what kind of involvement did you have in the cover for this one?

48:45 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Well, this book was actually much more collaborative. I have been working now with the same publisher for five books and this one I was invited to have an input Because we're all there. There's a bit of an in-joke amongst authors that we all get the email with our cover saying we hope you love this as much as we do and which is code for this book cover. And once you've built up a certain brand, I've even got the same font on the front. No-transcript took the books. P22 Garamush is my font and it's this sort of Whimsical, sort of quite quirky font and they have a certain look and they all have a certain length of title and I suppose that's part of the branding.

It does make them more recognizable, so I'm not going to suddenly go off there and have a photographic cover or something that you know it's in a way got to be recognizable as a Joanna Nell book. But I did have one request, and Rebecca also loved a green dress. But I had a green dress which got big gold leaves all over it and I'd boarded on a complete whim and I'd been hanging in my wardrobe for ages thinking I'm never going to wear this other than to something like a book launch, and I thought, well, I haven't got a gold book. So my one request to Rebecca was could we have gold please? And it's not quite gold, but it's sort of almost gold.

50:11 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I've blended in beautifully with the gold on the night. I have to say.

50:15 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah. So I thought, yeah, I got to wear my gold dress on the launch night, so yeah, look, there was a lot of going backwards and forwards with different design ideas, and I found the whole thing fascinating, really working with a cover designer who's actually designed all the other covers. So, yeah, it was an interesting process that there's a lot of thought that goes into book cover design. It's an art in itself. No, it is Well, you would know, because you've designed, of course, your last cover to yourself.

50:50 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Yeah, well, I've commissioned someone to do it but of course had to make that final decision, which was very nerve-wracking and you know it's like is this the right one? You know you haven't kind of got the publisher there to pull back, you know if when you're doing it yourself. But I love the little kind of Greek patterning on the cover of this one too that you've got like it's very subtle, but when you look closely you know there is that. I don't know the name for it. You probably do, Jo.

51:16 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yes, no, I should do it. Shouldn't I somehow repeat that I should know that? Yeah hopefully that gives the nod to the Greek pattern.

51:26 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Oh, it does Without going over the top.

Definitely, definitely. I just want to check, Jo, that we've covered. I know we don't want to keep you too long, okay, okay, yeah, so this is a little bit, Jo, like similar, I guess, in some ways to that question I was asking you about. You know, after five books, how are you feeling in terms of where you're at with your career? But what advice would you give to authors who maybe have had a couple of books out or their, you know, three or four books into their career?

And I guess I'm thinking in terms of it could be in terms of the writing itself and the writing process, but also in terms of this navigating the industry, you know, and how you maintain your own identity and authenticity in the face of an industry that does often want to put you into a box, you know, and and push you one way or the other. I feel like you're kind of really, with this last book you were really at a crossroads with this, this looking in from the outside in, and it's been really interesting to watch you navigating that. So would you have any advice for anybody out there who is kind of looking to think about you know, their career, the bigger picture of their career and how you know, maybe the book they're working on now how that fits into that and how they fit into the publishing industry.

53:06 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Yeah, that's a really tricky one and I'm not sure of the answer because I'm still navigating that myself. You know, there was a time when I thought that, you know, I felt a little bit as though I'd been pigeonholed, you know, with the type of the books that I was writing, although they were all very different, with different characters. There was sort of a central theme there and in some ways these characters are a little bit younger in this book and it was maybe me sort of backing my way out of that. I don't think, you know, the publishers and the readers are not going to forgive you for suddenly changing direction and not delivering what they want. But you also have to balance that with being, as I say, an authentic writer in writing, in your own voice, and being, you know, being true to yourself. So I think it's a balance of the two.

And I know a lot of authors who've actually changed genre. Some have done it very successfully. Look at Amanda Hampson, moving into, you know, her posy crimes here it's just gone gangbusters and it's. But it's a gamble to do that, and so I suppose I'm, you know, I'm just evolving with my books, perhaps sort of moving slightly away from those earlier books and discovering a little bit more, but trying to take the readers with me as well. And I think the other thing that's really important and I think what comes at the bottom of it we all have times in our careers where we feel as though we're flagging a bit and, you know, it certainly seems a bit more of a slog, particularly when it's suddenly your day job, you know, and you've got deadlines and and I think it's another thing I say to myself you stay in love with the writing. You know, just see it more as writing rather than publishing books, and sometimes you need to reinvigorate yourself and give yourself a new writing challenge. But I think it helps to keep learning and working on your craft as well. So I know you read a lot of craft books and you're the perfect embodiment of the advice that I'm saying. I'm following your lead.

But sometimes, if I'm really stuck, I pick up a new craft book, probably one that you recommended, actually, and it won't necessarily change the way I'm writing, but somewhere in that book there will be it could even just be a little sentence or something or just a paragraph that completely changes the way. It just switches my mindset and it opens it. I sort of unlock the door and suddenly I see a new idea or I can see a way through a problem. So I think we should see ourselves, you know, coming from a profession where I had to do 150 hours a year of, you know, continued professional development sorry, not 150 hours, 50 hours a year. I'm used to being a lifelong learner and doing courses and reading books and things. So I think that we should see ourselves in that professional way as well and to do a certain amount of work on learning our craft as well.

So, and I think it's really important to have a community around you too. I'm all for building a community and you know I think it would be very hard to do it on your own. So that can be a physical community or, you know, an online, a virtual one as well. So try to be, you know, try to support other authors and, you know, be a good member of the community and that community will help you out when you need it.

56:51 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Oh, great advice, jo. I love that. And yes, you are right, I am always about the next writing craft book, too much so sometimes. Um, jo, you. Mrs Winterbottom is out now. She was released last week, wasn't she?

57:06 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

it was only last week yeah, so she's definitely out there available for people and would make a great Christmas present.

57:13 - Pamela Cook (Host)

Listeners hint, hint as well as great reading for yourself, but I know that you're already starting to work on your next book. Have you got any? Can we have any little hints about what that might be? Is it too early in the piece yet?

57:29 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Absolutely no hints at all, because what I've learned is that if I get too excited and start sharing something too soon, it could go down the wrong route. So I'm only about 10,000 words into a new manuscript and I think it gets. It should get easier with each book, I think. For me it gets a little bit harder, I think, because the expectation is that you know the next book needs to build on what you've already done to the success of the previous book. So there's a little bit of anxiety about starting a new book. Once I'm into it and it's flowing, it's great. But I'm just at that initial stage.

This time I've got the whole premise, yay, but I haven't got the plot. So I've got characters. I'm just playing around with it just at the moment. So I have the, I almost have the blurb and the tagline, but I don't have the plot. So I'm trying to incorporate all the lessons I've learned from the previous books, or rather avoid the pitfalls of the previous books, and my aim with this one is to do it in less than six drafts and to not to have to do a major rewrite this time. So I'm spending a little bit more time thinking about this one.

58:41 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I'm sorry, Jo. Well, thank you so much and good luck with that. I can't wait to. I know of course I do have a little bit of inside information about what the next one's about, but the lips are sealed. So I'm really interested to see how this process goes for you and love that idea of writing the blurb first. Might even have a crack at that myself for the next one, I think I just might finish up, Jo, with what are you reading at the moment? Any recommended reading?

59:11 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

um, what am I reading? I am reading a beautiful I think it's a debut uh called the secrets of the huon ren, by claus and ron just the cover. It's absolutely gorgeous cover, yeah, and the, the, the sort of the. The premise of that is that a journalist goes into a nursing home to try and record a story but ends up being um, becoming involved with a, a woman who she sees cradling a baby doll, and it's it's a dual sort of timeline. It's a beautifully written book and a beautiful cover.

59:47 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I think that would make a lovely Christmas present for someone too sounds like yeah, that's SECRETS OF THE HUON WREN by Claire Van Ryn sounds like there might be some tissues needed for that one too, I think.

Thank you so much, Jo. It's always such a pleasure to chat to you and, yes, we're listen. Oh, and I have to have to get everybody to have a look at your beautiful new website, which I have been on this morning and checking out by our lovely inky, Michelle of Fresh Web Designs. I think, she's done a great job.

01:00:18 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

I'm so pleased with it.

01:00:22 - Pamela Cook (Host)

I mean, your previous website was lovely. This is absolutely gorgeous, and just so you. I love it.

01:00:26 - Joanna Nell (Guest)

Of course she did, did yours as well. So she's it's. I'm very, very happy. But thank you, Michelle.

01:00:33 - Pamela Cook (Host)

If you're looking for a website although I know Michelle's books are, you know, probably closed, but anyway, keep it in mind for the future. So, thank you, Jo, enjoy the next step in the writing process for the new book and I will see you very soon. Well, thank you very much.