Murder, Mayhem, and Manuscripts: A Deep Dive with Crime Writer Sarah Bailey
In this episode…
🚨🚔In an interview it would be a crime to miss, Rae Cairns goes deep on the writing process with acclaimed police procedural author, Sarah Bailey. Sarah spills the beans on her dynamic writing process, from initial ideas to final edits. Don’t miss insights on creating gripping tension, managing ethical dilemmas, and the thrill of seeing her series potentially hit the TV screen! 📚✨
Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of rights for women this week, we have something very special. I guest host Ray, Ken's talking to. Fantastically loved crime author. Sarah Bailey. Sarah is the author of six. I think it is crime novels. And this is a fantastic chat between Ray and Sarah. To wonderful crime authors chatting about Sarah's books.
[00:00:25] Of course, particularly her latest release body of lies. But also really getting into the writing process. And there's some great stuff here on how Sarah goes about research, how she fits riding into a very busy life with three children and a full-time job. Also a whole lot of other things about the writing process. So I think you're gonna really love this interview, regardless of whether you are a crime author or not. Or whether you're a crime reader or not. This is one for all readers and writers, I think.
[00:00:52] And it's a really interesting conversation. Hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed listening to it, as I was editing it.
[00:00:59] Ray Ken's is the author of the good mother. And dying to know two brilliant crime slash thriller novels about ordinary women caught in very extraordinary situations. If you haven't read, write, raise books yet. I highly recommend them. They're absolutely gripping and page turning and you can find the links to buy them in the show notes for this episode.
[00:01:19] Not a whole lot for me to report this week in terms of my own writing. I finally finished. The editing slash proofread on both Blackwater lake and out of the ashes to get them ready for print and ebook release later in the year. And I've also done my novella proofread.
[00:01:38] That's gone off to the publisher at HQ hub Colin's for the CS Christmas anthology. Just today, actually. The novella that I wrote for last year's anthology at Christmas to remember has been released into the wild on its own. So you can grab that for just 2 99. As an ebook, along with any of the individual novellas from that anthology.
[00:01:57] So if you feel like just dipping into one or two of them, Highly recommend you grab those at your favorite ebook retailer. Also wanted to give a shout out to all the people following along in my diary of a procrastinator. Patrion series. This is for the family level supporters who pay $5 a month. And what I've been doing the last couple of weeks is doing an analysis of Donna Cameron's opening chapter for the rewilding, because I think it's just a really great gripping opening chapter and it's, a master class on how to write an opening chapter.
[00:02:29] So I've been reading that along with the Patrion peeps and digging into what makes that such a great opening. Now that I've finished doing all my edits, I'm going to be, get getting back to my own writing. And I will be sharing my process as I write the third in the Blackwater lake series, a place of her own I'm already 25,000 words into that night.
[00:02:51] I had talked about that at the beginning of the diary of a procrastinator series. But I am going back to that. Tomorrow and we'll be doing a few updates each week for the Patrion people just talking about my writing process, talking about any difficulties that I'm coming across, what I'm doing to get over them, talking about, characterization. Getting words on the page, anything at all to do with the process of getting that first draft down? And I'll be doing that in a fairly short period of time, because it does need to get to the publisher in a few months.
[00:03:21] So. Follow along aiming to do a nano this month and make a 50,000 words in a month. I'm also planning on doing a kind of ride along sessions with the Patrion people where I'll just send a zoom link through and anybody that wants to join me for a half hour or one hour writing session. As we motivate each other, that will be happening.
[00:03:39] And so you can find out all about the Patrion program on Wrightsville women.com/patrion. So let's get on with this week's chat. Ray, Ken's chatting to crime author, Sarah Bailey, and it's a really great one. Hope you enjoy.
[00:03:56] Hi, and welcome to this episode of Rights for Women. My name is Ray C Cans. I write crime fiction and I'm one of Pam's guest hosts for 2024.
[00:04:04] It's my absolute pleasure to be speaking with Sarah Bailey today about her fifth full length novel, that sixth publication Body of Lies. We'll also chat about her writing process and how that may have changed since Book one. Sarah Bailey is the author of the Internationally Award-winning Gemma Woodstock series, as well as the bestselling standalone novel, the Housemate and an Audible original Final Act, her debut, and first of four Gemma novels.
[00:04:31] The Dark Lake won the Ned Kelly Award for best first crime fiction and the Davit Award for best debut Body of Lies. The fourth book in the Gemma series was released in March this year. Sarah, welcome to the Convo Couch.
[00:04:45] Thank you so much, Ray, for having me. So as well as being an internationally bestselling crime author, you have three sons, one of whom is moving into toddlerdom, and you are also the managing director of the Melbourne and Sydney offices of an advertising agency. So my first question has to be, do you have any tips on how to keep writing when time is scarce? It's
[00:05:08] Sarah: a really good question that I'm currently asking myself because I do have a I do have a book deadline that is was on the horizon, and now it feels like it's getting closer and I really need to do something about it.
[00:05:20] Sarah: Look, I think with writing and I'm sure that this is something that, you would agree with. You do have to really want to do it because. It's hard to find time and it is deep work. Like it's that kind of work that you can't dip in and out of at certain phases of the writing process.
[00:05:35] Sarah: Or I think I used to be a little bit better at doing that maybe as well. But now I'm finding that I really need enough time to be able to get back into my story and read what's already written and then really think about the next steps and the next themes and what whatnot. So I find that if I have half an hour, I can't do much with that.
[00:05:53] Sarah: Like I can potentially do a tiny bit of editing, but to really make progress on a manuscript, I do need a couple of hours at least set aside better, if a day if possible. So time is the real challenge when it comes to writing for me. I try to find blocks of time where I can just corner myself off and I do work quite quickly, which I think is lucky.
[00:06:17] Sarah: I'm quite a fast. Thinker and a fast writer.
[00:06:21] Rae: Is that both in your first draft and in your editing that you find you're quite quick?
[00:06:26] Sarah: Yeah, I think so. Just talking to other writers and it's obviously really hard to compare and tell because you don't actually sit with someone else while they're writing.
[00:06:34] Sarah: Yeah. But from what they tell me, I feel like I am, I don't really second guess my decisions. I'm not someone that agonizes over every word. I'm fairly pragmatic, I think, when it comes to writing. So particularly in that first draft, I'm all about just getting the story out, getting it down, making sure it's making sense to me.
[00:06:54] Sarah: Having the loose beats of the story as clear as I can. The editing process is a bit different 'cause you do have to be a little bit more thoughtful and there is more of a kind of agonizing over, removing a scene or changing a character or big decisions, so that is a bit slower by nature.
[00:07:12] Sarah: And I go into, I think, quite a different pace from an editing point of view than I do with a like draft point of view.
[00:07:19] Rae: So do you tend to try and put aside a day on the weekend or Yeah. Is that because Yeah, because you're back working full time now?
[00:07:27] Sarah: I am back working full time and the honest answer to your question is I actually don't know exactly how it's going to work now because I've never ridden with a baby before.
[00:07:35] Sarah: My other children were I think about four and seven or so when I first started writing, which is obviously quite a different ball game because they were able to be entertaining themselves or, d different kind of cadence of sleeping and things like that. I dunno how it's gonna go.
[00:07:50] Sarah: It'll be a bit of an experiment and we'll find out, but, I'm lucky, I've obviously got a supportive partner so I can negotiate specific blocks of time, but there is limited time to negotiate because work's already taken up a very big chunk of it. And my work's quite unpredictable too.
[00:08:07] Sarah: So even though it's full-time and it's full-time hours, we work in an industry where pitches come in or things change. And so even planning out, a weeknight to get two or three hours done can be a bit of a challenge because it just doesn't always work out that way. But I'm just someone that I guess I don't stress about it.
[00:08:28] Sarah: I feel like it's always worked out in the past. One way or another I feel optimistic that it will continue to work out one way or another.
[00:08:37] Rae: Yeah. And it's like you said before that, that you've gotta want to write.
[00:08:42] Sarah: That's right.
[00:08:42] Sarah: I was saying to someone the other day, I, when I'm not writing, I miss it. And so I guess that's good to know. It's a sort of, it's actually quite a nice thing to miss something. 'cause I feel like that means that, it is something that you wanna do. But that doesn't mean, obviously that when you sit down it's easy.
[00:08:58] Sarah: I wish that it was getting easier and easier, but I actually don't feel that it's get gotten any easier for me to write really over, over the six books. It hasn't got easier. No, not really. I think it's just because each book is its own unique puzzle and has its own sort of unique challenges.
[00:09:16] Sarah: And I think that the main thing I've learned is to have that optimism that it will get done because it has gotten done before. So I don't tend to stress about it, but it certainly. I don't really necessarily feel like I've got all these skills that I've accumulated that have, that make it easier.
[00:09:33] Sarah: It's like a confidence in there somewhere that I'll figure it out. But each book is, yeah, its own unique beast. So it's a strange craft, I think in that sense, because I guess you learn skills, but I don't know, there's something about it that makes every book feel like a special challenge.
[00:09:52] Rae: But isn't that, the other thing is that you're learning from each book, so as a craft, you keep learning. It's not like you go, oh yeah, I've done that tick.
[00:10:01] Sarah: I think so, yeah. Obviously that's part of why it's so rewarding because there is the struggle. Like I think that if it was easy, it would just not be nearly as attractive to, to be a writer, because I think that even though we all find it I think most people find it quite challenging and certainly a big project to take on.
[00:10:19] Sarah: If it was easy, I just don't think you'd have that satisfaction at the end, that, that is so special. For me, that achievement of standing back and looking at a book and thinking about all the hours and decisions that went into it and the changes and the way that, I had to navigate it, that's so much a part of the satisfaction that comes from writing.
[00:10:40] Sarah: And I think it's also because in our world there's so few opportunities to complete a project in a way that feels like a full circle. Something that you can tick off. Most of the things I work on in my other job are sort of job. There's projects that get completed, but they just roll on to some extent as well.
[00:10:58] Sarah: Whereas I think with a book, it's done and you get to hold it and look at it and reflect on it. And maybe it's not perfect, but it's a completed piece. It's really, it is really, special. And I think that it is a huge driving motivation during the process.
[00:11:14] Sarah: Like all of those times where you're oh, I can't be bothered writing today, or Gosh, this is hard, or I dunno how to fix this editorial feedback. That, that feeling that you're chasing to complete it is certainly the thing that keeps me going, I think.
[00:11:30] Rae: Yep, absolutely. On that, huge congratulations on Body of Lies.
[00:11:35] Rae: I absolutely loved it. Especially the twists and the red herrings and the way you wrangle numerous plot lines and still keep the build of tension going. And it's also I think a lesson in how to make a book in a series work as a standalone novel. Like it really sits as a standalone novel as well, which in I learned from that.
[00:11:58] Rae: So can you tell us a bit about the story?
[00:12:01] Sarah: Yes, I can. And thank you grace, so much for those kind words. It's really nice to hear all of that feedback. Yeah, so the book is the fourth book in the Detective Gemma Woodstock series. And I have to say at the start, the idea came the premise, the idea of this book came before it was part of this series.
[00:12:21] Sarah: Like I was considering it as a standalone idea.
[00:12:24] Rae: Oh, this was
[00:12:24] Sarah: just in my mind. I never put pen to paper, but I was thinking about this premise of a body being stolen from a hospital morgue. And I loosely in my mind had another detective character tied to it, completely new character.
[00:12:38] Sarah: And I was just thinking how that might all come together. And then there was a few things that sort of fell into place. So I decided it needed to be in a regional country town just to make the premise more. I. Believable. So the idea that a body could get stolen from a hospital felt like something that would be more likely to happen in these regional sort of towns just based on the way the hospital and the morgue relationship works.
[00:13:02] Sarah: And so once I started framing it into that setting, Gemma popped up, and I'd already had this idea a long time ago of her being at a, at the hospital with a unwell family member. And so I thought, oh, she's already there. And so yeah, it was a funny kind of process because I hadn't necessarily planned.
[00:13:25] Sarah: To write another Gemma book. I hadn't definitively written it off, but I certainly hadn't planned to write a fourth. The fir, the third one sort of ends in a way that I would've been happy with, I think. But once she started to muscle her way into the story, it was so clear to me that there needed to be this fourth book and her story needed to continue.
[00:13:45] Sarah: Yeah, it was really nice actually, because then I had the character to put into the premise of the story. But I, I really started writing this book quite a long time ago. Like I started the sort of few first few. Chapters of this book when we were in lockdown in Melbourne in 2020.
[00:14:01] Rae: Oh wow.
[00:14:01] Sarah: And then parked it for a few months and was finishing the housemaid and got really busy doing that. And then, ended up back in the opposite work and back being busy again. So I had about 25,000 words that sat on this manuscript for I think over 18 months. And I really didn't touch it for that whole time.
[00:14:21] Sarah: And then went back and did really like the premise, really felt like it was worthy of pursuing. So worked through how it was all going to play out. But it changed quite a bit. And the subplots that you mentioned really didn't come into play until I went back and revisited it. Like that first 25,000 words was quite straightforward.
[00:14:43] Sarah: Initially it was very much just around the key premise and that was the focus and that was it. And then it wasn't until later that I laid it in with some of these other. Characters and subplot situations, which Gemma was really helpful because I know so much about her and her world.
[00:15:00] Sarah: I was then able to create these other kind of tensions and stories beyond that kind of core proposition of the book. So it was a really, yeah, it's been a, it was a really fun one to write. I'm gonna say that now probably because I've got perspective. I do remember at the time there was quite a few challenges and I did edit this book with a young, very young baby.
[00:15:22] Sarah: So I got the, I did the first pass of the draft when he was about a month old, which was interesting. Oh my God.
[00:15:30] Sarah: But as you would've known from reading the book, Gemma's also. Has a newborn in the book. And so it wasn't ever intended to be life imitating art because I started this book quite a long time ago before there was any idea in my mind that I would have another child.
[00:15:46] Sarah: But it did end up that, she's navigating crime scenes with a baby strapped to her front and I was kinda like typing around a baby strap to my front. So it was quite funny because she does those
[00:15:56] Rae: bits, the little snippets about the work beautifully about her. So yeah, it's quite, I was like method writing I guess.
[00:16:03] Rae: So it was probably, now you sure go a long way, don't you, to get the method writing. Yeah,
[00:16:07] Sarah: I really, yeah. For my art I'll do anything. But yeah, so it was a sort of an interesting process overall and certainly the longest I've ever taken to, to work on a book. Not that I think it actually, if you added up all the time, it took me overall, it probably didn't end up being any longer than the others, but it was just spread over quite a few years.
[00:16:27] Rae: Yeah.
[00:16:28] Sarah: Which I think probably ended up helping with the book because it I think, did need quite a lot of color and that, because it's the last book in the series, I really wanted to make sure it came full circle. And so setting it back in Gemma's hometown, she's back to where it all started.
[00:16:45] Sarah: And I think the growth that she has in this book is really important and makes me feel good about ending the series. I think like it does feel like it has got the right ending.
[00:16:57] Rae: So was that a hard decision to decide to end the series
[00:17:00] Sarah: I don't know. Like I do get asked quite a bit if I miss her or was I sad and I like not really it's, it didn't feel particularly emotional.
[00:17:09] Sarah: I think like she's been such a, I feel lucky that I thought of her. I suppose is more where I get to no idea where she came from. And she disappeared, all those years ago. And I'm very fortunate and do feel lucky that she appeared and that she had so much in her that it could lead to four books, which I, it had no idea at the start was gonna happen.
[00:17:30] Sarah: So it's more just like an appreciation that I managed to land on a character that had that ability. Yeah. But I don't really feel, sad in a way. I think it's just, that's just the right time to end that theory. Then I think also it's coincided with the books being turned into a TV show.
[00:17:53] Sarah: So in a way I feel like she's getting this extra Yeah. Life, all over again. So maybe that's also helping it not feel like it's over.
[00:18:01] Rae: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So returning to Body of Lies specifically, just give us a little, so Gem is back in a hometown? Yep. She is at the hospital with her dad.
[00:18:11] Rae: Yep. Essentially what happens just to give people a little brief.
[00:18:15] Sarah: Yeah. So yes, Gemma's visiting her dad at the hospital who is unwell and they are talking, she's about to go home, home. She's visiting him after hours. She's on parental leave, so she's not on the job, she's not being a detective in that moment.
[00:18:31] Sarah: And suddenly the hospital is plummeted into darkness. There's a blackout and no one knows what's going on. The generators kick in and as gem is going down to the main area to work out what is happening, it becomes apparent that someone has stolen a body from the morgue during the blackout. And the body is that of an unidentified woman who was bought in just hanging onto life following a really dramatic car accident earlier in the evening.
[00:18:59] Sarah: And then she dies on arrival. So that was her body in the morgue and someone has taken it. So it becomes very much a situation of who was she? Why would someone wanna steal her body? Was she good or bad? Was the car crash an intentional one or an accident? What happened? And Gemma, while not technically being on the job, just cannot help herself from getting involved in the mystery because it's just right up her alley in terms of something that she wants to solve.
[00:19:30] Sarah: And there's the added complexity of the fact that the detective that essentially has replaced her while she's been on leave is someone that she doesn't particularly like. So there is a professional competitiveness to their relationship that really comes to the fore as she's trying to wrangle herself back into the investigation.
[00:19:49] Rae: Yeah. So she's got the investigation and then she's got her work life with this kind of. Conflict with Everett. And then she's also got a whole new change at home with a newborn baby because she has an older son, but then she's got the That's right.
[00:20:02] Rae: The baby. So she's got a lot going on in her life.
[00:20:05] Sarah: Yeah. She was already having a little bit of a crisis of career confidence or almost even, what does she actually want? And I guess that the pool of the case makes it very clear that there is something about that role and that career That absolutely is intrinsic in her.
[00:20:23] Rae: Yeah.
[00:20:24] Sarah: But she does have some decisions to make you know about the future. And does she want to. Really double down on her ambition and progressed in, in that career and climbed the ladder or is it time to think about doing something different? So she's got all of that uncertainty swirling around in her mind.
[00:20:42] Sarah: The baby as well as which is a, let's be honest, a physical inconvenience when it comes to work. So having to navigate like the logistics of a baby and the logistics of a case, they're really not compatible. So she's navigating that as well. She also has regrets about
[00:20:58] Rae: how she navigated that with her son.
[00:21:00] Rae: So she's dealing correct.
[00:21:02] Sarah: Yeah, she's trying to do it better this time around. Gemma is. Impulsive and selfish. And she's very morally, she wants to always do the right thing, but that doesn't, her behavior to get to doing the right thing doesn't always play well with others. So she's always fighting against herself to some extent.
[00:21:21] Sarah: And I think that certainly comes through in this book too.
[00:21:23] Rae: It does, absolutely. Chris Hammer calls her his favorite Australian detective, and I, she's an absolute cracker. Like she's flawed and relatable and infuriating all at the same time.
[00:21:34] Sarah: Bless Chris Hammer for saying that considering he has his own detective, he has his own
[00:21:38] Rae: I know, which I've said to
[00:21:39] Sarah: him.
[00:21:39] Sarah: I'm like, what are you
[00:21:40] Rae: talking
[00:21:40] Sarah: about? But no, it's very nice thing of him to say.
[00:21:43] Rae: But she's also, like you said, sometimes she makes these decisions, she's quite polarizing in both within the world of the novel, but also with readers at times that they get Oh, definitely.
[00:21:55] Sarah: I get lots of feedback.
[00:21:57] Sarah: I, I have found particularly older women find her infuriating. Like when they talk to me about her, they can often be like, oh, she's just so frustrating. I just wanna give her a good shake. And I'm like, okay. But I totally understand that. And I think the good thing or the interesting thing for me in having managed her character over four books was the chance to have her self reflect more.
[00:22:25] Sarah: Yeah. In the first book, she she's aware of some of her actions not being ideal but in a way that is quite defensive still. She justifies it all the time to herself. Whereas by the fourth book, we've actually got a person who is able to step back sometimes and think about why am I doing this?
[00:22:42] Sarah: Why am I thinking this way? Why do I have this, inclination to respond like that. Like she is able to reflect on her behavior and regulate it to some extent. See, I felt really interesting
[00:22:53] Rae: because she did mature so much over the four books. Yeah. And yet you clearly didn't plan to have the fourth book
[00:23:02] Sarah: no. Or
[00:23:03] Sarah: The second or the third, initially,
[00:23:05] Sarah: Her
[00:23:05] Rae: character arc across the four books has just happened with each book. You didn't have that, a thought process about that
[00:23:11] Sarah: at the start. No. When I wrote the first book, there was no, I didn't even know if I'd finished that book.
[00:23:16] Sarah: So there was definitely no conscious thought around continuing that character across the series. I think I, I do remember once it became clear that the publisher wanted a second book. I did remember feeling very strongly, like an instinct that she had to move away from the. She had to leave Smithson and she had to go off and have her like two towers book that I remember thinking she had to leave and be challenged in a different way.
[00:23:44] Sarah: So I knew that second book had to be a bit of a rock bottom book, which I think then did have me thinking about the third in a bit of a different energy that had to then be coming back up again. I think in a second book she does a lot of soul searching and it's not, she's in a, not a good spot.
[00:24:03] Sarah: Functionally at work, she's fine, but she definitely grapples with a lot of demons and whatnot in that way of leaving home, often does make yourself reflect where you have to be a new person in a new environment. But yeah, it's all been, it's developed as it's gone.
[00:24:19] Sarah: And then the fourth book, I suppose I had more time to think about it because I didn't, necessarily know it was gonna be a Gemma book for a while, by the time I decided it would be, I felt quite clear that full circle, final piece of the puzzle really had to happen. Like I was genuinely running outta time to, to do it.
[00:24:38] Sarah: If I didn't do it in this book, it wasn't gonna happen. Yeah. And it was nice to have the opportunity to have her learn some lessons in a way that I think you feel when you finish this book, hopefully, that she's gonna be okay because she has had to do that growth and she hasn't just done it tokenistic.
[00:24:57] Sarah: She's actually really acknowledged it and understood it in a way that you feel is quite key to how she's gonna go ahead into her life, into the future. So yeah, I mean I, some of it sounds really strategic when I say it like this. It doesn't feel that way when I'm writing it.
[00:25:11] Sarah: It's much more instinctive than that. But it's interesting though sometimes it's a subconscious,
[00:25:16] Rae: isn't it?
[00:25:16] Sarah: Yeah. I was just gonna say, I think that's right. Your brain is piecing some of those things together as you're writing, and it's not until you come back to do the editing that you feel like, oh yes, those connections are quite clear and those themes are coming into play here.
[00:25:30] Sarah: And obviously then you can hone bits and pieces to make it really specific. But yeah, I think you just, yeah, you, man, I've managed her arc in a way that I has made sense to me. But, she's still Gemma and that's the whole point. You have to have someone that is, even when someone grows, they are still themselves and she's certainly still impulsive and she will be until,
[00:25:51] Rae: The end of
[00:25:52] Sarah: her life.
[00:25:52] Sarah: What was the
[00:25:53] Rae: inspiration for Gemma, like way back dark? When you were writing the dark light, did she arrive fully formed or did she develop, or did you think very clearly about her and plan her? Or do you know what? She just
[00:26:05] Sarah: like literally appeared in my mind as of really fully formed character.
[00:26:11] Sarah: Her name. In my mind, even what she looked like, I have no idea where she came from. I really couldn't tell you. It was I was playing around with this idea of a murdered high school teacher in a small country town. Just knowing that would be such a challenging thing for a community to navigate.
[00:26:29] Sarah: Yeah. And then second to that, I think Gemma just needed to then be someone that had a relationship with this victim and she just appeared in my mind, I could just see her tramping around the lake in the dark lake looking at this, high school pier of hers that was murdered 10 years later.
[00:26:49] Sarah: And I never had to sit down and plan out. Her backstory or her character or what, whatever. It was just all genuinely there.
[00:26:58] Rae: She elbowed away in like she does
[00:27:00] Sarah: in her job. She was just like, yeah, like gen. Yeah, absolutely. And even things like I knew she had lost her mother as a teenager.
[00:27:07] Sarah: I, I knew she had this lovely but removed relationship with her dad. Like it was all quite clear in my mind right from the start. So she has never been particularly challenging for me to write. It's more been the world around her.
[00:27:23] You've got quite a, a.
[00:27:24] Rae: Cast of characters in Body of Lies. Yeah. Yeah. How do you keep track of them all? How do you like, '
[00:27:31] Sarah: cause there's a lot. Oh, it's, yeah, it's a nightmare. It's a total nightmare. It's, it is tricky. Like I, I think what I've realized I do, looking back on all of the books that I've written, I'm pretty good at holding everything in my mind for the first sort of 40, 50,000 words of all my books.
[00:27:47] Sarah: So just give people an idea
[00:27:48] Rae: that, dunno about how long are your books? Like this one was about a hundred thousand words. Yeah. Okay.
[00:27:53] Sarah: Almost all of them have been, none of them have been less than a hundred thousand words. So they're all a hundred to 110. So I tend to get to the halfway ish mark and yeah, it can be quite smugly, yep.
[00:28:06] Sarah: It's all in my mind. I don't plan anything. So it's all just in my mind and I'm quite confident up until that point. And then I tend to find that I open the file and it loads and I start to realize that I've lost track of. What's happening, what has to happen next? Who everyone is all the subplots.
[00:28:24] Sarah: And I'm like, ah. And that's when I almost have a little pause moment and I almost have to go back and write out almost what's happened in my own book so far, just so that I can get it straight. So I'll tend to, at that point, print it out, go right in chapter one.
[00:28:41] Sarah: This happens and I do a bit more of a visual sort of plan, like just on a post-it thing on the wall, which to be honest, I actually think is me just buying myself some time to recalibrate and re orient myself around my own book. Because as I do that, I tend to then realize that I'm figuring out what happens next and what hasn't been closed off or tied up from a thread's point of view.
[00:29:04] Sarah: And where subplots are and aren't working. It is mainly so unconscious, but I start to realize, okay, that's missing, that's not very clear.
[00:29:13] Rae: During your first, about halfway.
[00:29:14] Sarah: Definitely halfway through. Halfway through, through
[00:29:16] Rae: your first draft? Yeah.
[00:29:17] Sarah: And then I go back in again and keep drafting, but with a little bit more of a re like a reboot.
[00:29:23] Sarah: It's okay, I'm in a bit of a better place now. I think I can get to the end of this book hopefully. Because I've had this little review with myself around what the hell is, yeah.
[00:29:36] Rae: Okay. So what does the physical draft look like for you? Like that first draft? You don't, you type, you don't hand write it?
[00:29:43] Rae: No. Is word, is it in Scrivener? Is it in some other,
[00:29:47] Sarah: oh, I wish it was in Scrivener. 'cause it sounds really organized, but it's just in Word. What word for you? Yeah, I mean it's a bit tricky actually to even say, is it a first draft or is it like a. The 15th draft, because I will, by that point, like by the time I sort of print out what I call the first draft, I have, edited it a lot.
[00:30:09] Sarah: I have gone back and probably already rearranged things and I've given it a good sweep over as well. And so it's a weird, it is a first full draft, but it will still have bits where I'll be, note to self saying, this needs to change, or this chapter's not quite right, or this might not be in the right spot.
[00:30:27] Sarah: So it'll have set of little notes all over it. It'll have lots of things highlighted in yellow
[00:30:32] Sarah: When something in my book's highlighted in yellow, it means I know it's not good, but I can't be bothered fixing it right now. So it is unfortunate that I'll go to Officeworks and I'll be like, oh, look at all that yellow that needs to be solved.
[00:30:45] Sarah: But but I think for me, the first draft is, it's like tagging the finish line. It's like I've got to the end. It has a start, it has a finish, it has a middle. Things need to be fixed and changed. I know, but at least the full story has got its shape.
[00:31:01] Rae: That's actually your way of getting it through a first draft is going, okay, I'll highlight it in yellow and then I can just keep going rather than getting That's right down in. So Yes, because I was gonna ask you a hint of getting words on the page that first draft and you
[00:31:14] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And no I'm very clear on, I would never finish a book if I didn't just keep going.
[00:31:21] Sarah: I need the momentum of the writings process. It's momentum feeds momentum for me, I think. And I find if I stop and get stuck. Kind of start to really procrastinate or weigh up different scenarios or whatever, I lose my own kind of momentum.
[00:31:42] Sarah: So I think that's why even at that halfway mark where, let's be honest, I do get stuck.
[00:31:47] Sarah: I dunno if I'd call it writer's block or just like bad planning. But I think that's why I then do switch to let's go back through the book and work out what's happening so I can keep moving. And that for me is just that perpetual motion kind of approach. If I'm not writing words down and doing something, I.
[00:32:04] Sarah: I really start to feel like I, I can't make the book work. So I think for me it's that keep moving, keep going. If one scene's not working, jump to another one.
[00:32:14] Sarah: Oh, so you'll jump
[00:32:15] Rae: ahead to a different scene just so you're writing.
[00:32:18] Sarah: Correct.
[00:32:18] Sarah: Yeah. I would much rather, especially 'cause I think I have such limited time. I guess that's also probably part of it, but I'm very much okay, that scene's not working. So I might say, absolutely something that needs to happen here is this character needs to turn up and reveal this information.
[00:32:32] Sarah: And I'll put, I'll literally just put that in the draft and then I'll just drop, I'll just jump to another theme where I do feel confident that I know what's happening. I'd much rather spend like the hour that I've got. Writing a scene than staring at the screen and not getting anywhere.
[00:32:46] Sarah: So I do end up having to tap the street style, stitch all these disparate things together sometimes, and then change the joining words and fix it. But I always feel like productivity is progress. You, you can't have out, for me anyway, I can't spend hours and hours and not generate words.
[00:33:07] Sarah: 'cause I just think I'd never get anything done in the end.
[00:33:09] Rae: Yeah. So you write, you don't have a plan at the beginning. You literally sit down and start writing. Yeah. Your structures are very strong. So do you in your head have a, have clear points you need to hit in your structure or is it something you've learned through reading or a method you've learned or some, because I think people often get a bit overwhelmed by structure.
[00:33:32] Sarah: Yeah, it's I was thinking when you said that I don't have a plan. That's true. Like I don't have anything written down, but I will, I think I do more work than I give my brain credit for, if in my head. So I think I do start with a blank page. I don't have notes or, I might occasionally have written down something that's a small point.
[00:33:51] Sarah: But what I do have is a really clear premise. With Body of Lies, it was very much like Gem is at the hospital dealing with her own sort of tragedy, family challenge. Then from sideways this amazing crime happens where, a body stolen from the morgue, very strange, obviously.
[00:34:11] Sarah: Go what happens? So that's very clear when I sit down and start writing, and I think in my mind that question really continues to beat through. Every time I'm sitting down to write, I'm like, is this still interesting? Is it making sense? Is it moving along in the way that I know it needs to as a reader?
[00:34:29] Sarah: And I think the other thing that I do have, and I don't know if this analogy makes sense, but, and I'm certainly not a painter, but I imagine that when someone starts to think about painting something, they don't know exactly what it's gonna look like, but they have a plan in their mind of what they're trying to create.
[00:34:44] Sarah: I will certainly have key beats of the story. So with this book, I guess that there's the overall premise, which is very clear to me. There's then Gemma's having all of these family issues that will end up being quite, I know there's a lot of drama that's gonna come from that. I know what I want to be a big reveal in that subplot perspective, so you
[00:35:06] Rae: know what the end of that subplot is.
[00:35:08] Sarah: Yeah. I did know with that. That family specific secret subplot. I knew what that was. I also knew that she was gonna start having doubts about her personal relationship. Which would add to the sort of drama and stress of her investigating the crime.
[00:35:23] Sarah: I knew that I wanted her friendship with her old friend Candy, to be a big part of the book in terms of an important relationship that she really relies on.
[00:35:32] Sarah: So that needed to be clear. And I knew she needed to have some tension with her old boss that would really question her relationship with him. Which came at a time where she was always also thinking about her career. So I I do know that I've got all of these things that I need to cover off, but I don't always know exactly how.
[00:35:53] Rae: Yeah. Did you know who the perpetrator was?
[00:35:56] Sarah: No, but I did know to be honest, ma mainly with my books, I always know that it's gonna be one of, say five people. Which is exactly how I think it should be when you read a book.
[00:36:06] Rae: Yep.
[00:36:07] Sarah: So it almost, for me feels like I am writing, but as a reader, it's the same process that I have when I read other people's books where I'm working towards going it could be that person, it could be that person, it could be that person, and really it should and could be any of those people.
[00:36:25] Sarah: And then it ends up being one of them. And as long as there's a really clear motivational through line for that to be the case, then that's, I think, a good outcome for a story. But I know as I was writing it, it could have also been any of the other four people as well. And so it's almost like I'm writing it as the way I would read it.
[00:36:44] Sarah: And then hopefully that means that where I get to is a good story.
[00:36:48] Rae: If you don't know exactly who did it, then the reader's not gonna necessarily know. Yeah, absolutely. Achieve that. '
[00:36:54] Sarah: again, it sounds all very planned. This is. Me in my mind, just hoping for the best and typing into the abyss most of the time.
[00:37:01] Sarah: But but obviously when you go back and do the editing, that's also when you have the chance to wrestle things into a slightly better shape, make things a little bit clearer ensure that the red herrings if you have them aren't, crazy bonkers, just swinging in from left field and all of those things.
[00:37:17] Sarah: So I think the first draft is just a bit terrifying 'cause you are just writing and hoping for the best, but you do obviously then have the chance to craft and fix and update and all that sort of stuff.
[00:37:26] Rae: Yeah, it's funny the whole, 'cause there's talk about plotters and pants and I used to say, oh, I'm a panther.
[00:37:32] Rae: But I realized I just do a lot of the work in my head. Yes. Like it's there and it's processing. I just don't have it. A bit like you are, I had the beats and the kind of a feel, but I don't really know who the perpetrator is. Yeah, it's interesting that whole thing. Yes, I wanna move to research 'cause I'm curious.
[00:37:50] Rae: 'cause it's a police procedural essentially, even though she's not always employed at that point. But she, how do you write a police procedural with start writing organically? I guess writing straight out. Yeah. How do you manage the research of the novel?
[00:38:07] Sarah: I do have a bit of a a, what's it called?
[00:38:09] Sarah: A theory on research, so I'm very much fiction first, then fact, and then fix or finesse. And that's the three stages of the sort of research process that I follow. And the reason for that is that, like I said before, I really need that energy and momentum in my books, and particularly that first draft.
[00:38:29] Sarah: If I'm not excited and ha happy to keep moving with my story, I think you can feel that on the page. So I did have to do a little bit of, very light research just to make sure that the actual premise made sense. So hospitals do have morgues. I needed to make sure that it was realistic that if someone dies in the emergency department, that they would actually be taken to the hospital morgue and how that kind of would work and what kind of timeline.
[00:38:51] Sarah: So I luckily, my mother is a nurse, so she was able to give me the overall reality of how that worked. I did a little bit of research just to have a look online, like what do hospital norms look like and how are they managed and all of that sort of thing. But that was not significant.
[00:39:07] Sarah: It was really just pressure testing my own premise. Yep. And then once that part of it was clear, I just wrote and I wrote the book. How I wanted it to be. Like from a story point of view, I would occasionally have to, look up online just some of the procedural pieces and just make sure that things made sense broadly so that I wasn't writing, 20,000 words on something that just wasn't, feasible in any way. As there's quite a health layer in this story. So I did just have to orient myself around what is happening in that world at the moment, and making sure that some of the things I was talking about were true and realistic. But I would, I don't know how I would quantify this, but the overall research that I would've done for that first draft would be less than a week's worth of effort.
[00:39:52] Sarah: 'cause it's really just making sure that there's feasibility around the premise of the book. Once I've got the draft, that's when I go back and sort of fact check my own story. And I'm very clear that I'm not asking open-ended questions of experts. I am very much. Asking, is this feasible or possible?
[00:40:12] Sarah: Yes or no? Because I'm not writing a diary of a police officer. I am writing an extraordinary once in a career type, case. Because that's what is making it an interesting book, hopefully. Otherwise it'd just
[00:40:27] Rae: be your paperwork.
[00:40:29] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing. And so I think it's really difficult for experts when you're asking them about their job.
[00:40:35] Sarah: They want to be telling you what's realistic and how it actually works. And I want that, but I also don't want that because this is supposed to be a, a story and it is an extraordinary story. That's why it's made a good premise, right? So I'm very much just checking, is this feasible? Could this happen?
[00:40:53] Sarah: If this happened, could this be the response of a police officer? And people get a bit, it's, yes, it's technically possible. And I'm like, good. That is all I want from you. It's the same with the medical information and the science information and any law information.
[00:41:10] Sarah: I'm not looking for what is necessarily the most likely not in my books at the moment anyway, maybe that would be in a different kind of book. I'm really wanting to understand, have I written a story that is in, within the realm of possibility. And then obviously occasionally I'll come up with something and they'll say, no, it's not.
[00:41:27] Sarah: And I'm like, so then I'll have to go back and change it and make sure that it's, amended in a way that it does fit into that feasible world. And then there's a lot of finessing obviously, and a lot of the editing that I find I have to do is timeline management. So the order of things, particularly with like DNA testing and things like that, like certain things can't happen quickly.
[00:41:51] Sarah: Sometimes things can, and just having to make sure the procedural. Order of events is accurate and realistic so that someone's not reading the book and just being like, oh, this is, I can't engage with this story because I know that's not realistic. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to avoid. But I don't mind if they're a little bit like, wow, I don't think this is this is likely, but it's a pretty cool story.
[00:42:13] Sarah: That's fine.
[00:42:14] Sarah: I love that premise of fiction
[00:42:15] Rae: first. Fiction first.
[00:42:17] Sarah: Yeah. It's, the genre I think is leading that requirement. People are wanting an escape from reality and they want a realistic story in an unrealistic kind of moment in time in someone's world.
[00:42:31] Sarah: And so I think that's where I'm circling around getting right.
[00:42:34] Rae: Yeah. The other thing I was I really liked about what you said was not ask, not asking open-ended questions. 'cause one of my things I was gonna ask you is do you have any tips for writers who have problems in their manuscript about how to one, how to find information experts, things like that.
[00:42:52] Rae: But also then how you manage it. So you've already given that one tip is no open-ended questions. Yeah. Do you have any other tips for writers on how to fight? Yeah, and look,
[00:43:03] Sarah: I think, I actually think open-ended questions have a place, have a role to play. If you don't have a premise. So I think if you were at the start of a sort of creative project and you've got some thoughts or maybe you've got a character or a setting, I think at that point, if you had access to an expert of some kind, asking them open-ended questions at that stage would actually be helpful I think in generating some concepts and ideas.
[00:43:27] Sarah: Because they might say something that you're like, oh, that's a really good. Thought. But I think that for me anyway, there comes a point in my book where I don't want more feedback than I can handle. I actually really just want to start home. Like I wanna hone in on where I'm at with my story, not open up more problems.
[00:43:44] Sarah: So I find that's when I cut out the open-ended questions because I just I can't, you get overwhelmed, I think, the editing process is already overwhelming for me, so I don't want to then throw in a whole nother like, range of really overwhelming feedback. So I think that's where I start to get pretty brutal about the, yes or no kind of questions.
[00:44:03] Sarah: But in terms of just advice in, from a research point of view, I think it's just engaging in all different kinds of information sources. Podcasts are amazing, whether they're true crime or more fictional or opinion I constantly get ideas from listening to deep dives into different, whether it's an a cold case or just a news report or.
[00:44:24] Sarah: It could even just be something like, like a chatty lifestyle podcast and you pick up little thoughts about characters or generations or whatever. So I think it's just being open to wherever ideas might come from and being curious and going to events and, go to writers' events and listen to people talking about where they get their inspiration from and yeah, all of those types of things.
[00:44:45] Sarah: So I think it's just, it's engaging in the world. You can go and watch a criminal trial, that's something that you're able to do as a member of the public. So if your case has one, go and watch one look up news reports and transcripts online. There is a lot of information out there that you can access these days particularly.
[00:45:02] Sarah: So I think it's just engaging in all of those things and then it's that kind of thing be really broad at the start and then get really specific because you do need to get to a point where you stop collecting information. And you write your book. And I know I don't know how people do historical fiction.
[00:45:17] Sarah: I honestly do not understand it because I would, I think I would really struggle to shift from research mode to writing mode and feeling like I had enough information. I'd get so bored. I think within two days I'd be like, I need you to start writing. And then obviously I'd have no historical context, so it wouldn't make any sense.
[00:45:35] Sarah: So I think it's amazing to me that people have the skills where they can go deep on research and then come out of that and write. I am, I think, too impatient for that to ever be something that I could do properly. So this genre obviously suits me better. And this approach, the kind of idea of fiction first, it also suits me better.
[00:45:55] Sarah: 'cause it, it means I get words down.
[00:45:58] Rae: Yeah. Absolutely. So something in your writing that stands out is your ability to keep raising the tension. Like that is something that I would say. Is it all your books have that you just keep piling on Paul or Ollie or whoever the main character is.
[00:46:17] Rae: But do you have any kind of tips and tricks for tension? Like it, does it happen in your first draft or is it something you have to go and pull out later or, yeah. Any tips or ideas about tension in a novel?
[00:46:29] Sarah: I think I do have to give my editor Kate Goldsworthy a shout out. ' I always think of her like a director directing an actor and going like that.
[00:46:37] Sarah: But more do another take but bring more to it. Like she very much is saying to me, go harder. Don't be scared about really putting your characters through the ringer, like just this. But more so I think. The second draft definitely often is where some of that tension really does get elevated and amplified.
[00:46:56] Sarah: I tend to be a bit softly soft touch in the first draft, I think where I'm a bit scared to fully put them through the ringer. And I think that's also something that perhaps I have learned from the first and subsequent books is that it's okay to really load up someone up with a lot of stuff in a crime book.
[00:47:14] Sarah: You, you can keep hitting them until they almost can't take anymore. Yeah. That's sort of part of the whole process and readers are okay to go with you on that, I think. Yeah, I think it is it's little things. It's obviously the way you end chapters and the readability of making sure you, you are giving people enough crumbs that they wanna keep reading and enough little moments of doubt.
[00:47:35] Sarah: Like I call them. It's it's red herrings, but it's actually not just red herrings, it's also just little. Little senses of unease about certain characters where you're like, what is your motivation and what are you all about? And I think that starts to become same as we
[00:47:48] Rae: do in life.
[00:47:49] Sarah: Totally.
[00:47:50] Sarah: It's very curious. I think for me, and again, this sounds strategic, I'm probably not so consciously thinking of this when I write, but how do I make sure that people are feeling a spark of curiosity when they're reading my books? Making sure that there's that constant, like I just dunno about you and I'm not sure about this situation.
[00:48:09] Sarah: And you're wanting that kind of intrigue to be palpable really from the get go. And sometimes even doubting characters that, people have come to I think that's always really interesting when you've got a series is that you can play around with you like this person and we all like this person, but actually they've gotten themselves into a bit of a pickle here.
[00:48:28] Sarah: So now how do we feel about them? So you having this. Constant reevaluation.
[00:48:33] Sarah: And because the dark light series is written in the first person, I suppose you're always having it from Gemma's perspective. So it's also that emotional investment that hopefully people have where if she's sad about someone letting her down or someone that she thought she knew, that it seems like perhaps she doesn't, you want that to hit pretty hard emotionally because you should be in it with her.
[00:48:56] Sarah: And we all know what that's like in real life too, where someone disappoints you. So it's just that, yeah, it's unease, it's tension. It's sometimes a bit of a shock. And I guess you're balancing all of those things. And I think that if you get that balance broadly right, or as right as possible, then hopefully it, it results in the tension you're talking about
[00:49:17] Rae: you also have some short, punchy chapters. Which help with tension is making the chapter shorter and your sentence structure changes a bit and you get a bit more dialogue. Yes. I
[00:49:27] Sarah: think some people do that really well. I'm actually not sure I'm right at that because I read sometimes, other people's books and I think, oh my God, the way that you just manage these little short, punchy chapters.
[00:49:37] Sarah: And I think that some people have a real gift in that regard. I'm, my structure stuff's a bit looser. It's not a style, it's it's different in every book, but yeah, I guess you're trying to adapt the writing and the energy of the reading experience to match what's happening in the book.
[00:49:54] Rae: So
[00:49:55] Sarah: if there's kind of moments that are hard and fast and shock, then you don't want meandering long chapters that are explaining things. So I think you are, yeah. You would I'm trying to adapt to that kind of energy, I think,
[00:50:07] Rae: and I wanna, I just wanna touch back on point of view, because in the House housemate, which was your standalone novel you did third person because you have it from two points of view. And I wanted to talk a bit about the advantages and disadvantages of first and third and what you're experience writing, because they're both all in present tense. Yes. But it's the, yeah. First and third is the,
[00:50:29] Sarah: yeah. I found it really hard.
[00:50:31] Sarah: I have to say, to do third to third person. Yes. I think because I had written in first, which is so immediate and it's got inbuilt momentum and energy in it, which I think suits the way I think and write more. Whereas I had to flip that perspective to be a bit more observational and reflective.
[00:50:49] Sarah: And I had to change my pace, I think, to make that feel realistic. And I, it took me a while to just get used to it. I kept flipping back into first person and then realizing that I didn't know how Ollie thought, who's the character in the house mate? I was oh, I'm not Gemma anymore.
[00:51:05] Sarah: Like it's a different person. She's less impulsive and all those things. So I do think it worked really well for the housemate. I think it was the right decision, but it did take me a while just to get used to it. And I am writing a sequel to the housemate at the moment. And so back in third, I say that I'm writing it, I haven't actually touched it for three months, but I should be writing it.
[00:51:27] Sarah: And that's in third person as well. And again, I actually feel like sometimes I physically have to go click into a different, like gear.
[00:51:35] Sarah: Because you can't take shortcuts. Like in first person, you just say what that person's thinking and you're seeing the world from their eyes.
[00:51:45] Sarah: There's obviously things that, and. That's annoying because you then have to work out how do they get that information? How does the reader get that information? So there's challenges in first person.
[00:51:55] Sarah: There's limitations definitely within first person, whereas, in third person you've got that omnipresent sort of ability.
[00:52:03] Sarah: So it's a bit easier to reveal information and different things can happen. The person doesn't necessarily have to see and all of that type of thing. But yeah, I do find first person I think is more my natural style. So I have to work a bit harder to make third person work.
[00:52:20] Rae: Okay. You've also explored different settings in your novels.
[00:52:24] Rae: So you've had country city, coastal. Yep. Country again and obviously there's been a huge thing with crime novels being set in country town. Yeah. So what are the advantages and disadvantages of setting a novel in the country versus the city?
[00:52:41] Sarah: I think with a country town you can have more coincidences than you can in the city.
[00:52:46] Sarah: So because everyone knows of each other, even if they don't know each other and there's a smaller setting in terms of physical locations, coincidences are more easily explained and not don't feel as forced. Whereas, in a city setting, you can't have people tripping over each other randomly when there's millions of people and, like it's just different.
[00:53:07] Sarah: I found particularly going from the Dark Lake to into the night, that whole journey for Gemma was very much going from a town where she knew so much everything was so familiar. Whereas, when she moved to the city, it was this anonymity that was really important. And also a sense of just being quite alone and not knowing anybody.
[00:53:26] Sarah: And so I think that you can just play around with different relationships in that way.
[00:53:30] Rae: Yeah, definitely. And okay, so I just wanna touch really briefly on final Act, which was your audio first book. Yes. Did you have to write differently for an audio first?
[00:53:42] Sarah: It didn't start out as an audio book, so I guess I not initially.
[00:53:47] Sarah: Okay. It was actually the first thing I ever wrote before the Dark Lake. Oh, wonder I started this idea. Yeah. I started this idea ages ago, got stuck, couldn't get it to work. Had about 20,000 words sitting there flipped to the Dark Lake that obviously was successful and managed to get an agent and pitch it and all those things.
[00:54:06] Sarah: And then I was at a writer's event or festival, I can't remember, and someone from Audible heard me talking about this manuscript that I'd parked. And the premise of it contacted me and said, I'm interested in that. Do you think you could finish it? And then that's how that happened. Yeah, I had to go back and work out if I could finish it.
[00:54:28] Sarah: And I did still struggle with it a little bit. It's a, it's quite a tricky story because it's it is still crime fiction, but it doesn't have traditional pro protagonist. It, there's no detective, there's no journal, there's no lawyer. So it's, there's a surgeon main character who's not an investigator, but ends up being a quasi sort of detective.
[00:54:49] Sarah: So it's a bit tricky logistically to make that all work. But yeah, it was a really good challenge, like picking up a book that I'd abandoned, re energizing it and making it work and finishing it. I think I was aware of the audio bit when I was writing it, just to the extent of maybe more just clearer shorter descriptions, like lots of dialogue.
[00:55:14] Sarah: Just but not in a way that I think I really wrote differently. Yeah. Maybe just in the editing process I was a bit aware of just being really clear with the dialogue and yeah. But I think the process is broadly pretty similar or at least it was for me.
[00:55:29] Rae: Okay. That's interesting. And then you've you mentioned before that GEM is going into a TV series, I think you said. Yes. How's that been? Like, that is obviously a lot of writers dream of seeing their books on the screen. Are you involved in that process? How long has it taken? Just give us a bit of
[00:55:47] Sarah: Yeah, I am, I'm very excited because it feels like it's actually going to happen, but it has been, I think seven years in the process.
[00:55:54] Sarah: So I'm also a little bit reserved in that there's still quite a few hoops that it needs to jump through before it actually is in production. But it's certainly feeling very promising at the moment. So there's a, a streaming partner has come on board. The production company's always been very committed to finding it a home.
[00:56:12] Sarah: There's an actress attached, so it certainly feels like it's gathering momentum. But TV is, even more fickle than publishing apparently.
[00:56:20] Rae: Yeah, I don't think people realize how long it can take. Like you might get something Oh so long that it stays optioned for
[00:56:27] Sarah: However long the piece of string is. Yeah. Yes. There's so much money that needs to be found to fund things. I always joke that when I want a dramatic thing and need to call in ambulances and fire engines, I just ride it. Whereas, in a TV show it's, that's $400,000 or something.
[00:56:43] Sarah: So it's a different creative process. But yeah, I am quite involved there. There've been amazing wanting to make sure that I feel. The way that they're looking to interpret it. So I'm not a producer. I'm not going to be writing it. There's a lead writer that's been brought onto the project and I'm very happy with that.
[00:57:01] Sarah: But yeah, I'm involved I don't know, almost like a consulting kind of role. So I will be in the writer's room for some of it and then I will certainly review like the first episode that they write and just stay across the project broadly. Which is perfect for me. I don't want to be hugely involved.
[00:57:19] Sarah: I'm really happy for them to take it, in whatever direction they think needs to work. The tv, I know it's a different sort of format but it's really nice to be asked my opinion and just to be involved in that sort of overall way. So yeah, I hope that, fingers crossed, it makes it all the way through.
[00:57:36] Rae: That's exciting. It's so exciting. Okay, I've only got a couple more questions. What's the best of writing life for you? What's the best part? Yeah.
[00:57:46] Sarah: I think, like I said earlier, that like finishing a project and holding it, I guess is always just an incredibly rewarding moment.
[00:57:57] Sarah: And I do, I think I've become quite addicted to that sort of feeling. 'cause otherwise I just don't think I would keep doing it. It's just, I think it is just, yeah, so rare to have something that you can hold and say, I did this and it's done. And I really think that's for me important.
[00:58:13] Sarah: But there's so many things about it that are amazing. Like just the privilege of getting to create worlds and characters and stories. It is special and I'm really glad that I. Want to do that and that I get to do that. And I do sometimes look at other people and think, oh, you'll never have that, and I don't want it.
[00:58:30] Sarah: So they're not upset about it, but I'm like, oh, I really enjoy that. And so I'm glad that I've had that experience. And then just other writers, I think, talking to other people about their ideas and their stories, and I just, I already work in an industry that's very much around ideas and communication and I just, never ceases to amaze me just how many ideas there are out there and just the different ways into solving different problems.
[00:58:53] Sarah: And it's just so reassuring, that there is just always going to be art forevermore because people just always have ideas and I really love being in industries that are adjacent to that that kind of creativity. And then, yeah, I think, obviously meeting readers and having them tell you what they thought of your book is.
[00:59:13] Sarah: A strange kind of privilege. And you do, I don't know if this is the same for you, Ray, but you've, I'm very aware that I've written books and that they're out in the world and they're being read. But you don't really think about it very much.
[00:59:24] Sarah: No. And then someone comes up to you and says, I've read your book and I think it's even more highlighted when it's a book that you wrote five years ago and they're telling you that I read it, I don't know, last week.
[00:59:36] Sarah: And you you are like, oh yeah, I forget. People are still Yeah. Reading those books. And that's just it's amazing and it's very strange. And yeah I really appreciate, that anyone's read any of my books, but having them tell you what they thought of it, how they interpret it, what they liked, what they didn't like, like it's just, I love it.
[00:59:54] Sarah: I don't mind if they don't like it, it's still great to have that dialogue and that kind of interaction. So yeah, there's lots of things I like about it.
[01:00:03] Rae: It's great. We will almost finish there. I'm just gonna have to ask Sam's favorite question for writers. Yeah. What is at the heart of your writing and what ties your six novels together?
[01:00:13] Rae: What do you think?
[01:00:15] Sarah: I think ethical dilemmas probably is the theme that when you really boil it all down, it's good. People making good or bad choices and bad people making good or bad choices. And, they happen to be in a world of policing and journalism and law and things like that, but they're still just people.
[01:00:36] Sarah: And I think that's like the characters around that world is also what I'm fascinated by. So yeah, ethical, quandaries and what makes people tick, I think is essentially what I'm really always trying to unpack and understand.
[01:00:51] Rae: Yeah, absolutely. I've so enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much for sharing all your, tips and about, various areas of writing.
[01:01:01] Rae: It was really interesting, a huge congratulations on Body of Lies, and I can't wait to hear, read the sequel to the housemate. Oh,
[01:01:09] Sarah: I need to finish it first, obviously, so you might have to wait for a little while, but no, hopefully that will work its way into a book at some point as well.
[01:01:18] Sarah: But I thank you. I've really enjoyed talking to you as well.
[01:01:21] Rae: Thank you.