The Paige-Turning Plot: Vanessa McCausland’s Secrets to Succes
“I wanted to examine the allure of the little red heart—the way social media can feel like love and validation, but it’s not real. It’s fake. That is not your life.”
Buy THE LAST ILLUSION OF PAIGE WHITE
🎧 Struggling to write a story that hooks readers? Feeling unsure about how to balance plot, character, and big ideas?
This week on Writes4Women with @pamelacookwrites, @vanessamccausland shares the secrets behind her latest novel, The Last Illusion of Paige White, and how she overcame the exact challenges you might be facing as a writer.
💡 Here’s how listening can help YOU:
✨ Tighten your plot: Vanessa breaks down how she crafted a twist so good her first reader (her husband, a plot genius) didn’t see it coming. Learn how to set up red herrings and keep readers guessing without losing the heart of your story.
✨ Make your characters unforgettable: Discover how she layered emotional depth into her characters, giving them flaws, secrets, and complexity that resonate.
✨ Get unstuck: Vanessa shares how she overcame self-doubt, followed her instincts, and pushed through creative risks to write her most ambitious book yet.
✨ Navigate the writing process: From messy first drafts to revisions that matter, this episode is packed with practical tips to keep your project on track.
Whether you’re just starting out or deep in the trenches of a draft, this episode will give you fresh ideas, clarity, and the encouragement you need to write a story that stands out.
🎧👉 https://pod.link/1275851144
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement
00:24 Book Overview: The Last Illusion of Paige White
01:27 Personal Writing Updates
02:07 Editing Challenges and Techniques
04:41 Upcoming Projects and Courses
09:24 Interview with Vanessa McCausland
10:14 Synopsis of The Last Illusion of Paige White
11:39 Writing Process and Inspirations
22:34 Exploring Themes of Grief and Social Media
33:47 Balancing Social Media and Real Life
36:53 Exploring Themes of Nature and Online Identity
37:09 Social Media and Teenagers: A Personal Perspective
38:36 The Role of Poetry in the Story
41:29 The Evolution of the Book's Title
44:16 Navigating the US Publishing Market
49:16 Balancing Creative Integrity and Market Demands
01:01:51 Rejuvenating the Creative Spark
01:04:23 Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Reflections
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave a rating and review or consider subscribing to our Substack.
Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of rights for women. It is Tuesday, December the third, as I'm recording this, can't believe I'm actually saying that date three weeks left till the end of the year. Even less until Christmas. Absolutely crazy. And today I have a fabulous guest Vanessa McCausland, who will be talking about her latest release, which is actually going to be released this week tomorrow.
[00:00:24] In fact, The last illusion of page white. I finished this book yesterday. I just screamed through it. It is an absolute page Turner. Fabulous. For fans of the lovely bones before you knew my name and everything, I never told you. And I really, really enjoyed it.
[00:00:41] It's about a woman who dies in mysterious circumstances. It's about friendship and family and. Grief and social media and so, so many things. And I think one of the reasons that it really struck a chord with me is because Vanessa writes about some very similar things to the sorts of things I write about family. Relationships friendships. Chips grief. Floss. And. And there were kind of. Little moments. It's. In this story that. I thought, Ooh. Ooh, this. This is a little bit similar to something in. Cross my heart or. The Blackwater lakes. Lake. So. Just a little. Heads up.
[00:01:14] If you. Do I end up reading? Reading the. Last dilution of page white and I highly recommend you do. And you enjoy it. You might want to check out maybe cross. My heart or Blackwater lake from my backlist. And hopefully you will enjoy those as well. So just on a personal writing front, before we get into the interview, I'm currently doing edits on a place of her own. The final, final edits before it actually goes off to billing to audio for recording. With Rebecca Bower who has done the other two books in the series, Blackwater lake and out of the ashes.
[00:01:45] And she will be recording the third and final. Narration on a place of her own. So that's really exciting. And that will be out in March. And then later in the year, probably only a couple of months after that, hopefully in print and ebook. There's not very much for me to do on the edits because it did have a really thorough edit before I sent it off to Belinda. But one thing that has been popping up is the Well, the one thing that, that might the editor has been picking up is where I use she, the pronoun, she and her quite a lot, because it is an aspect of deep point of view writing, even though it's written in third person. The idea is to cut down the narrative distance as much as possible between the reader. And the protagonist.
[00:02:27] So. In scenes where it's really obvious that the person I'm talking about is the protagonist Eve. I will use. She just because even though it's still a pronoun, it's still referring to her name, it's a little less intrusive. It's not a constant reminder to the reader that it's, you know, Eve, Eve, Eve, Eve.
[00:02:46] And it's not a constant reminder that there is this outside narrator. It's a little bit more subtle, I guess. But interestingly, the editor has actually replaced. A lot of those shes and hers with Eve with the name. And as I'm reading through it, It actually is I find it really jarring. It's not the kind of style that I right in. So I've had to really do some hard thinking about this and have I been doing the right thing?
[00:03:13] I checked in with another editor friend of mine who actually didn't have previous edit on this book as well. And. She reassured me that my thinking is correct in this. And I think it is because I do run in deep point of view and it is really about. You know, trying to, to keep that connection between the protagonist and the reader as much as possible.
[00:03:31] So what I just, I have kind of decided on is to keep the references to Eve that the editor has included in the prologue because they have got a prologue in this one, just. As a bit of a linking thing between the second story and this one, and for readers who haven't read the other two books in the series or the trilogy. So I've kept even there just to really set the story up and make sure that the reader knows that he's Eve that who is the protagonist. And then as it's gotten into the narrative, I've used. Eve occasionally where the editor has included it.
[00:04:03] When it's talking about her actions, so external things that she's doing, but for anything that's internal whether it's a thought or an emotion or a sensation that she's feeling in her body I've used, she or her. So hopefully that will be a good Kind of balance between those two. I will have to print that out. And read it through once again, the end of this week before I send it off.
[00:04:26] And that's something that Vanessa and I talk about in this interview is the absolute drudgery of reading this final, final revisions again Before it gets sent off. You know, to get to that final. Final stage of printing and publication. So that's where I'm At at the moment before I actually launch into writing my next. Novella, which will be as part of the 2026 HQ hopper. Colin's Christmas anthology thinking ahead to next year.
[00:04:52] And of course this is anthology a country. Country farm Christmas is out and it's getting some great reviews. And thank you to everybody who has been posting things about that on social media and sharing the love for that one. Just a quick reminder on my turn up, the tension course is available. It will only be until the end of the year at $199.
[00:05:11] Before I take that down and split it up into some smaller components, but if you have paid for it and bought it at the full price, you will, of course have lifetime access to that entire series of modules there's 18, or probably about 30 hours of, of work there that you do at your own time, your own pace. With lots of examples, lots of exercises, and lots of ways for you to increase the tension in your writing and to create a page turning experience for your reader.
[00:05:38] So you can find that@pamelacook.com.edu.
[00:09:24] Pamela: Vanessa McCausland, welcome back to Rights for Women. I we were just chatting about when you were last on and I think it was with the Beautiful words, which was two books ago. It doesn't seem that long ago. Yeah. But welcome.
[00:09:36] Vanessa: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Pam.
[00:09:38] Vanessa: It's always so lovely to talk with you.
[00:09:41] Pamela: Great to have you on and particularly to talk about your new release. I'll just hold it up for anybody who is looking on YouTube. The last illusion of Paige White with this absolutely stunning cover. Before we go on to talk about the book, Vanessa, it is out. So we are recording this on Tuesday, the 3rd of December. Tomorrow is launch day. Yep. And I'll be seeing you tomorrow night for your actual physical launch. But before we go into talking about it, can you give a little mini synopsis or a blurb for the listeners so they know what we're talking about?
[00:10:14] Vanessa: Yes. Discovered basically in the first sentence that Paige White is dead. Her body's been discovered in a lake near her home, and the media have picked up on the story and we're introduced to Jane Masters, a Sydney journalist and a childhood friend of Paige from back home. And she's been asked to cover the story.
[00:10:37] Vanessa: And it's hit the headlines because Paige lives this kind of beautiful, curated life on Instagram and her. Final post is a little unsettling, a little ominous, and there's a bit of mystery surrounding her death. And the police have put out a call to the public for information. And then in chapter two we're introduced to Paige herself, and she's trapped in this kind of beyond that she's slowly starting to realize, resembles her most liked Instagram post.
[00:11:10] Vanessa: So it's this. Atmospheric who'd done it, small town mystery, but with this slightly speculative aspect of Paige speaking to us from the beyond. And it set on the mid north coast of New South Wales in a fictional town called the Lakes. And Jane, the journalists returns to the lakes to her dad's house back home to work as an investigator to figure out what really happened to Paige White.
[00:11:37] Pamela: Yeah. Very good summary. Without giving away the important spoilers it's very similar in many ways to your previous books, Vanessa, this is your fifth release. It, they've all had that kind of element of mystery. There's been the honing in on, character and relationships and family, the relationships or friendships.
[00:11:58] Pamela: Like in the beautiful words and in, dreaming in French. So it's got very much similarities, I think, to those books, but there's also more of a crime element I feel. Yeah. In this one, I don't know, I can't really describe it as a crime novel, although it could easily be pitched as one.
[00:12:15] Pamela: But did that just all come about naturally? Or did you think, oh, I wanna make more of the crime element in this story? Or how did that side of things progress for you when you were writing the book
[00:12:24] Vanessa: I've been asked that a few times. It wasn't a conscious decision.
[00:12:28] Vanessa: The voice of Paige came to me as the start of this story, and I started to realize that she was. Trapped in this sort of place, a bit of a beyond. And with that came the realization that she was dead and that her body had been found. And so it was through that, that I then thought, okay I'm not that comfortable in actually having a police person but I can have a journalist because I myself worked as a journalist, a news journalist on the Daily Telegraph in my twenties.
[00:13:03] Vanessa: And I covered all sorts of crime. I did. Stabbings and shootings and car accidents and ram raids. And I had this whole experience many years ago and that hasn't really surfaced in any of my books yet. And I just thought, okay, I think we are doing that now. Jane is almost the person who leads us through and grounds us in this book because Paige is in this ether.
[00:13:31] Vanessa: She's telling her story, but Jane is the one that's uncovering the mystery and the whodunit aspect. So it just evolved that I was able to use some of my own experience dealing with police, I remember when I was a journalist thinking. You're not that dissimilar to a police investigator because you are trying to piece together a story at the same time as the police sometimes.
[00:13:58] Vanessa: Like I was on mid Dawns where I would work from 10:00 PM at night till 6:00 AM and I'd sit with a photographer and a driver listening to the police scanner, waiting for a story to break, and then we'd race to the scene and sometimes we'd get there before the police and we'd be talking to like neighbors and things like that.
[00:14:18] Vanessa: And so you are trying to piece together, what happened here? Because you're having to relay as quickly as possible a story back to the news desk. And then I was talking to police in the middle of the night and often because it was. 2:00 AM or something, they would probably tell you more and be more open and relaxed than if it was a big media pack.
[00:14:41] Vanessa: 'cause it was usually just me or maybe one other journalist, but usually just me. And so I did get a sense of what the police were like. And just this incredible stoicism and just thinking, gosh, the things that these people see every single day. And just that idea of the crime is happening every night in Sydney.
[00:15:03] Vanessa: There's always stuff going on and we just don't really realize. Yeah. And yeah, I think that it was inevitable that I would go a little bit down this road because I had all that experience to draw upon. Yeah. But it wasn't some, okay, I'm now becoming a crime writer. It was more just this is where this story is taking me.
[00:15:25] Vanessa: Yeah. And I think I've always been pretty cross genre in my writing.
[00:15:29] Pamela: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, definitely. It's always been those mysteries and the, that kind of the element of the backstory that becomes really important down the track and is revealed, like you've had lots of different elements going on.
[00:15:42] Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is really tricky for publishers. Sometimes they're like, where does this person fit? I just have to follow my creative urges 'cause I feel like that's where the good stuff is.
[00:15:55] Pamela: Yeah, definitely. There's plenty of good stuff in here. And interesting you were saying about your experience in meeting people who, had been through some kind of trauma or whatever or involved in, a crime or a victim of crime.
[00:16:09] Pamela: And interesting for Jane that she goes back to the town where she grew up and but she's under pressure to investigate the story for her job. Yeah. So that being in that small town environment around people that she's very familiar with and that know her history.
[00:16:25] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:16:25] Pamela: Also just accentuates all that doesn't, it really ups the stakes for her.
[00:16:30] Vanessa: Yeah. Like I, I wanted her to really be in a lot of turmoil about the ethical nature of covering a friend's death. And I, that's something I struggled with as a journalist, where your ethics were constantly questioned constantly challenged rather, because, the news desk would have this idea of what they wanted the story to be because it was a good story.
[00:16:54] Vanessa: But then you'd go out and you'd start investigating and you'd go, that's actually not the story. But they'd be like we wanna make that the story. That's how we, our front page is gonna be. And so you are constantly towing this line of, and you can see it in the media where things are beat up so much.
[00:17:13] Vanessa: And I. It's really hard if you get into journalism as someone who's a bit idealistic, which I was in my twenties. I was there to tell the truth. Yeah. And then when you're constantly asked to beat up stories, it, and then you'd write, you'd, you'd write a story you were proud of and someone would slap a headline on it, which would change the meaning.
[00:17:34] Vanessa: And the contact would ring you the next day and said, I thought you got this. Why did you change it? And I'd say I didn't, I had no control over the headline that got put on this. And if you read the story that the story stands, but the headline can change everything. Yeah. That was something I really struggled with as a journalist.
[00:17:55] Vanessa: So I think that's been given a bit of airplay in this book, in Jane's struggle when she's just being harassed to get the story about Paige. But she's feeling, like it's really hard because she knows this family, she knows she knew Paige so well, so that tension was there as well to play with?
[00:18:16] Pamela: It did really up the tension, I think. So the crime sort of elements in it and I noticed, as I was continuing to read through the story and then got to in there is a little bit of a who done it element to it.
[00:18:27] Pamela: And there's this sense that, it could have been this person or it could have been that person. Different parts of the story as always happens in a crime novel. I kept thinking, oh, it's this person. No, it's that person. Oh, no. Yeah, it wasn't any of them, so you did that really well, that kind of, red herring type planting.
[00:18:43] Pamela: Did that come about naturally for you when, as you were writing and drafting? Or is that something that you honed, in the revision process?
[00:18:52] Vanessa: Yeah, that's a really good question. Because it was the first time that I'd written this sort of more twisty plot than probably the others.
[00:19:01] Vanessa: I, I was very cognizant of how I was doing it. I did set up a lot as I was writing it, but then the editing process. I did make changes as well because, but not to the big reveal that was always just there. But I can tell you I was so nervous. The first read that anyone had of this, it was my husband and he's very good with plot and I was just thinking, oh my God, if he just guesses it and it's really obvious, the whole thing falls apart.
[00:19:37] Vanessa: And I was just like, I'm not good at this stuff. Like the plot and the story is so hard for me. Like the actual writing on a sentence level is a joy and much easier. It's the. Tying up at the plot. Oh my gosh. So I was just having conniptions and he, he read it and he just went, oh, wow. No, I didn't pick it.
[00:20:01] Vanessa: And I was just like, oh my gosh. Okay, I think it's worked. So that was there right from the start. And honestly, like if it hadn't worked, I don't know what I would've done. I know that sometimes I've got a lot of friends who write in this genre and I've heard all sorts of nightmares of having to restructure entire books.
[00:20:23] Vanessa: And so I was just thinking, oh my gosh, I don't think I'm up for that. But I did have to shore a few things up and there was a little bit of oh, this is just left at a loose end. You need to bed this in more. And but yeah. It was both. But I did have really great editors who by book five I really trust.
[00:20:43] Vanessa: You need that, because as you've let go of that first or second read, once you get through those, you lose a bit of track Yeah. Of what you've changed. And because it is so intricately plotted and all the little clues are there, when you change one thing, it can have a knock on effect that changes everything.
[00:21:05] Vanessa: And it's so hard to keep your head around that and to keep it fresh. Yeah. So you have to have these editors and readers who are seeing it more fresh and seeing it with greater objectivity than what you have.
[00:21:18] Pamela: Yes. Yes. Because we do lose all our objectivity after a few reads. It's been in our heads and.
[00:21:24] Pamela: We've been working on it for so long and I hate that phase where you're doing another revision and you think, did I just, didn't I just say that three chapters ago? But then you realize, I know. No, that's from the last time I revised you. I remember that. That's so odd. That is so
[00:21:37] Vanessa: true. That's exactly what happens to me.
[00:21:41] Vanessa: And you're just like, oh my gosh, I can't change anything because it's not real. I'm getting confused.
[00:21:47] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. It's
[00:21:48] Vanessa: so hard.
[00:21:49] Pamela: So your husband was the first reader. Do you have other readers you give it to before it goes to your publisher?
[00:21:54] Vanessa: Yes. So I've my husband, I've got Ali Lowe, who's brilliant with plot.
[00:22:01] Vanessa: I've got a friend who's a librarian and a friend who's a high school English teacher. Great. So I've got, and they all read in very different genres. So I feel very lucky that I have those people. And they're. They're pretty honest with me as well. Like they tell me when things aren't working.
[00:22:18] Vanessa: And I know by now 'cause I've done it with them, with each book. I know that this one will find this problematic and this one will find this problematic. But then if they all have a problem with something, I'm like, okay, I have to change that.
[00:22:31] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. Common denominator. You mentioned Paige and the fact that in chapter two we meet her even though she is dead she's in this, what you call the beyond or some sort of afterlife. It reminded me very much when I started reading it of the Lovely Bones and that we Oh, thank
[00:22:50] Vanessa: you. That is such a compliment
[00:22:52] Pamela: because
[00:22:53] Vanessa: I just love that book.
[00:22:55] Pamela: I
[00:22:55] Vanessa: didn't go back and read that again because I didn't want it to influence this too much, but I did read it way back then and was completely beguiled by it.
[00:23:05] Vanessa: I guess when, when you have finished the book and your publisher says what books, what are the, like titles? What are the comp titles? Yeah. Which you never wanna think about when you're writing 'cause you don't wanna be like, copying anything. Yeah. But when I thought about it, I was like, yeah, that is a comp title.
[00:23:20] Vanessa: Definitely. So thank you. I just, I really enjoyed playing with that aspect of it. And I guess I wanted to, make a comment, commentary on social media through that. And it just seemed to fit with the, the theme of, because Paige has got this religious family and the father that's a preacher and then the beautiful tree cathedral where it's set on the lake that he preaches that I just wanted to play with the themes of heaven and hell, how that could be really social media.
[00:23:58] Vanessa: It can be so beautiful and so perfect, and yet there's this darker, more, there's just this darker aspect to it that it can be harmful as well. Yeah. Then that played into the imagery of the lake and the sense of the light and the beauty and how sparkling and gorgeous on the surface. But underneath there's the rot and the mud and the the reeds.
[00:24:23] Vanessa: And I guess thematically all those things fit into what I was trying to do and say with this book. And yeah, that beyond that page was in allowed me to, it's, it was almost a door to explore all these other things. Yeah. Creatively. But it was also a risk. It was like I said to my husband as well, I've done this strange thing.
[00:24:51] Vanessa: Woman's stuck in Instagram. I don't know how it's gonna read or how it's gonna work. I think it's either gonna be really interesting or it's gonna just be terrible. So it was a creative risk. So this was a risk book for me 'cause I was doing something slightly more crime and I was having a speculative aspect.
[00:25:10] Vanessa: , so it wasn't easy to write, but it was very clear this book, the voices of all the characters, Paige was just there. She knew what she wanted to say. She was so strong. If anything, it was Jane who required a lot more work because she draws us through the mystery. Yeah. And there was more of a sense that I had to do a lot more editing of her story, but Paige was just, Paige is almost as I wrote her, she's just, come out. And so you have to trust that when you get something so strong. So even though I had all these doubts going, you haven't written something this twisty before, you are writing something, from the ether, what are you doing?
[00:25:55] Vanessa: I just was like, no, shut up. I'm going with it.
[00:26:00] Pamela: You're good. You have to follow those instincts, don't you? And as your the fifth published book, and I'm sure you've written others and I know you've written Yeah. A whole lot of different things. You just learn that instinct is important.
[00:26:12] Vanessa: Yeah. And maybe I couldn't have written this book until this point where I was able to silence those doubts and I was able to just go, no, come on, you can do this. It's something exciting. It's different. You like different, you need different. And yeah, and I was able to do it. I think if it was a couple of books back, I might've lost my nerve.
[00:26:36] Pamela: Yeah. You're more assured now in, in your own voice and what you wanna write and all that sort of thing. I think you definitely pulled it off.
[00:26:43] Vanessa: Thank you. And you're always looking for something after this many books, and I know there are people that have written 20 and gosh, hats off to them because you don't wanna be just retreading the same ground.
[00:26:56] Vanessa: You've gotta look for something that, energizes you, and otherwise it's just, what's the point, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:04] Pamela: No, I agree. And Paige's voice too. I wanna get onto the social media aspect in a little bit, but, so Paige is written in first person? Yes. And Jane is written in third person. Yes.
[00:27:17] Pamela: And there's a couple of other voices that we hear in, in there as well, which we won't go into right now. Yeah. The spoilers. But were those two kind of decisions in the point of view did they come to you automatically? Was that something you played around with at the beginning when you were writing?
[00:27:34] Vanessa: Interestingly, I don't think so. I think straight away Paige was first person. And then. Jane was third person and I knew that distinction had to be clear because I think it's helpful in delineating voices, but also there was more of a storytelling kind of aspect to Jane in the sense of she is, she's our touchstone to draw us through the happenings of the story.
[00:28:06] Vanessa: And I think honestly. Third person is probably the easiest point of view to write in. I think first person can be really challenging because it's much more narrow, but I knew Paige had to be first person because we had to be right there in the stifling sense of, the beyond and her being trapped.
[00:28:26] Vanessa: I have two other points of view, which I'll just briefly touch on. There's an anon anonymous point of view. I think I played around with that a little bit. And then there's another point of view in the past, and I think I played around with that a bit too, but with Jane and Paige, it was just very cut and dried.
[00:28:47] Vanessa: First and third person. Yeah.
[00:28:49] Pamela: And the other thing I think with Paige, I really liked having Paige's point of view from the beyond or the afterlife and that sense that of grief that comes through for there there's her grief obviously about where she's trapped, but the fact that , she is grieving, the dead person is grieving the loss of her, her loved ones and particularly her daughter. I found that really interesting. And the only other book that I've really read that does that beautifully, like yours is one by Eliza Henry Jones.
[00:29:18] Pamela: It was her first book. It was the debut novel. The character is a mother who has passed on. And she's watching her family and watching them deal with her grief. With the grief. So it's oh, I have
[00:29:31] Vanessa: heard of this book, but yeah I dunno what, it's
[00:29:33] Pamela: probably a good thing you didn't read it when you were writing, like Yeah.
[00:29:36] Pamela: It's hard to, yeah. But love it. It's really interesting. Okay. I, yeah, I found that really interesting because we are seeing the kind of grief on the ground, if you like, through Jane's perspective. And then as we meet the family and Paige's husband and all that sort of thing, and her daughter.
[00:29:50] Pamela: But then it just gives another aspect to the grief. Yeah. And it was really, I found it really thought provoking. 'cause I, it made me really think what, none of us know, obviously but it really made me think about that,
[00:30:00] Vanessa: thank you. Yeah, I think it's interesting there a few people have said, it's a commentary on grief. And honestly I didn't even think about that. Of course it is. Paige has died. She is thinking back about her life. But when I actually started thinking about it, I was like, okay, why have I written this?
[00:30:19] Vanessa: And I think it's actually my experience of being a journalist is tightly wrapped up in grief because yeah, it would be I went to people's homes when they'd lost family members and they let me in and told me about their loved ones dying. And I wrote pieces about those people to memorialize them. Yeah.
[00:30:42] Vanessa: And it's so strange how the subconscious works, but I think this was my subconscious sort of. Going dealing with some of that stuff I went through in my twenties, and when you're 23 and you've got this Truckee sobbing in your arms what do I know about grief? But it taught me very young, that really bad things happen to good people, that life is fragile and and beautiful, but terrible as well.
[00:31:15] Vanessa: And I think if I look at what this book is, I think there's that beauty and then there's that fragility. And I think that somehow I wanted to explore some of those emotions that I went through. And I don't think, like back then . There was no trauma counseling for journalists.
[00:31:35] Vanessa: I'm sure if you'd said, look, I need it. Like they would've done it. But it wasn't like today where, yeah, exactly. We're so much more aware of the fact that it really is very full on to listen to that stuff day in, day out and write about it. But yeah, I think that's what Paige is, and I think it's really important to remember that life is fragile and to actually enjoy the small things.
[00:32:04] Vanessa: Yeah. I have so many passages in that book where Paige is thinking back and going, why couldn't I just be happy with the small things? Because that's actually, as you get older, you realize those small things are what matters. So I yeah, I, I would like people to take that away from this book,
[00:32:22] Pamela: I think I might have taken it away from this book. 'cause funny you should say that I was journaling this morning and that was exactly what I was writing about really? So I think maybe your book had an influence there. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. And also in terms of that sense of grief and loss and regret there's grief in other ways too for, when Jane goes back to the place that she grew up in, and I won't go into it because I don't wanna give away too much of the story, but there is very much, there's all these complex emotions that she experiences about being back and that sense of grief and loss and regret is one of them.
[00:32:56] Pamela: And other characters experience that as well as they look back on their life, not just Paige and Janie. Yeah it's a kind of really complex mix, isn't it?
[00:33:05] Vanessa: It is. I know there's a lot of, I feel like this is my most layered book. I feel like all my books are pretty layered, but just trying to think about how to talk about it, I'm like, oh, wow, okay.
[00:33:16] Vanessa: There's another layer. How am I gonna express that? , I wanted to, yeah, I wanted to really ask a lot of questions and not, I don't think I always provide answers. But I think the asking of the question is important, and a lot of feedback has been, oh, you'll be thinking about this for a long time.
[00:33:37] Vanessa: And I think that's because I have raised a lot of questions. Yeah. But I think I like to read a book that makes me think, yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:46] Pamela: Me too. Me too. So with the social media aspects, Vanessa, was that kind of your original. Impetus, for writing this story , is it something that you were ruminating on for a while?
[00:33:57] Pamela: The kind of evils, if you like, of social media and like the dark and the light. The good and the bad Yeah. About social media, because as authors, we have to engage in social media to a certain extently, so there's that. But then you see, people who are influencers, inverted comm Yeah.
[00:34:14] Pamela: Like page becomes and just thinking about what yeah. What their life must be like. And I think you captured that really well. Did you do some kind of research into the lives of influencer type people, or were you just imagining it from your experience on social media?
[00:34:30] Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting.
[00:34:32] Vanessa: So I think as soon as Paige's voice came to me, I was like, okay, this is gonna be a bit of a commentary on social media. And I think I was drawing on my own. Complicated feelings towards it. As you said, it's been wonderful for our author community. For Bookstagram is amazing. I've made so many friendships, like real friendships that have gone into the real world from Instagram and the online.
[00:34:59] Vanessa: And so there's this incredibly positive aspect to it. But there's also, it's twofold. There's one that can be a little bit too seductive and it can almost almost engulf you. So when a book comes out and, you're getting all this hopefully good sort of stuff, it can I don't know, you become.
[00:35:22] Vanessa: Egotistical in some ways, and I think Paige struggles with that and. Just that sort of allure of the little red heart. And then you have to take a step back and go, this is not actually real. And I think sometimes if you're struggling in your real life, that sort of seemingly lot seemingly love and adoration can feel like it's enough.
[00:35:46] Vanessa: Yeah. But it's actually not real. It's fake. That is not your life. That is not real. And so I wanted to play with that. And I know I've had times where I felt. Really bad about myself and I've been really struggling in my life and social media has been difficult. Because, you know that these lives aren't real.
[00:36:08] Vanessa: That they're all a little bit staged, that the best photos are always taken. You know that not everyone is going out all the time having amazing time with their friends, but sometimes it can just do your head in a bit. Yeah. And so I wanted to, examine some of those feelings I've had myself.
[00:36:27] Vanessa: I. And I've learned that the way to balance it. 'cause I think it is a balance. I think one day we'll look back on this generation and go, wow, we were like Guinea pigs. We had nothing in place to I don't know, create any sort of life balance. But I think I. We probably will come to understand that's really important to step away, to have time offline, to reengage with nature, to put your foot, feet on the ground.
[00:36:53] Vanessa: And that's a massive theme in the book as well. Just nature as a bomb to the online world. And then there's of course that other aspect where we don't really know who people are online, yes. Is someone who they say they are. And that's something I wanted to play with as well. And that segues into, I've got a 14-year-old daughter and so obviously there's that whole conversation that's going on at the moment about the age of That's right.
[00:37:19] Vanessa: Children going on social media. It's just been legislated for 16. I don't know how they're gonna police that, but I do feel like it's a step in the right direction because it's setting. A societal expectation, and it's putting onus on meta and the platforms to realize that it's potentially really damaging our young people's mental health.
[00:37:43] Vanessa: And I just wanted to have that conversation and, I wrote this book two years ago or whatever it was, ages ago. And it's only just now coming into the media. But I've been thinking about it for a long time and having a teenager has really exacerbated all of my feelings around it.
[00:38:02] Vanessa: Yeah. Because she know, she went on Snapchat at about 13, but there was a lot of pressure for her to go on social media in primary school at the age of 11 and 12. And I didn't let her, she just felt like she was missing out on so much. And so yeah. All of that informed,
[00:38:22] Vanessa: I'm delving into with this.
[00:38:24] Pamela: Yeah. It's very timely. Like you say, it's so interesting that you've written this, really a couple of years ago. Yeah. And it's coming out just at the right time, I think.
[00:38:33] Vanessa: Yeah. It's
[00:38:34] Vanessa: Serendipitous. Yeah.
[00:38:36] Pamela: Another thing that comes into the story through one of the characters, and again, I won't go into too much detail, but it's poetry and, you were mentioning that you love the line, the editing and the line writing, and I know that you love reading and writing poetry.
[00:38:50] Pamela: Yeah. So was that something that just naturally came into the story for you as well?
[00:38:55] Vanessa: Yeah. Again, that wasn't a conscious thing. I'm gonna put poetry in this, but I guess I wanted Paige to be a really complex individual. She's this beautiful girl with this incredible husband and life and, she's also been underestimated in some ways her whole life, and she's actually really creative and really smart, but she's never she's never delved into those aspects of herself. And so I wanted to have her discover a new part of herself. And that's the writing poetry. And yeah, and I do really love poetry.
[00:39:34] Vanessa: I think it's it's such a little quaint thing in this fast world, but sometimes when my mind is like really racing and, I suffer from anxiety and I particularly during times like this, releasing a book, I'm just, my brain is going bananas and so I'll actually sit down and I will make myself read a poem because there is no better way to force your brain to slow down than to do that.
[00:39:59] Vanessa: So it actually occupies quite a therapeutic place in my life. And I used to write poetry, but I don't really anymore. But it's more just as a. A calming mechanism in a way. And also sometimes I get disillusioned about writing books and all of that. And if I read a poem, I realize it's actually the words that are the thing for me.
[00:40:24] Vanessa: Like the beauty of just how someone can put, four lines down and choose the word so carefully. It's just this perfect thing. And I'm like, oh, okay. Yes, that's why I'm doing this.
[00:40:39] Pamela: You do write very poetic prose, Vanessa oh, thank you. It's definitely, the influence is definitely there. Oh, thanks.
[00:40:46] Pamela: And again, another thread I think to the story that was really interesting and you did actually, the way that you unraveled Paige's, for the reader, the way that Paige's kind of personality and character developed it was really interesting. 'cause this is someone who I. Who has already passed, but we get to know her through, her commentary on what happened and what is happening. And we see these new signs of her as the story unravels, and I think that fits in so well too with the whole issue around social media that's developed. And this idea of illusion, which is, referenced in the title, was that always going to be the title or was that something that you had to play around with a bit?
[00:41:29] Vanessa: It wasn't actually, so the original title was an at symbol at Page White Is Dead. That was the working title, and I was really, I loved that title. That's great too. They we couldn't use it because having an at in the title was a problem, ironically for the algorithm and for like SEO. You can't have any sort of.
[00:41:54] Vanessa: At or underscore or anything in your title. So that kind of was like, oh, okay, I can't have that title. And then there was a lot of brainstorming. So at that point I had my US editorial team in on things. And so we were trying to figure out between the US and the Australian teams what to call it. And that was tricky because I think the US has gone with a little bit more of the literary thriller angle in terms of genre, but we ended up with the title that it is, and.
[00:42:29] Vanessa: I'm really happy with that. And it was really interesting because I then did a copy edit with my Australian copy editor and she went and underlined all the times I'd referenced Illusion. And she said, did you add some of these in since we changed the title? And I said, no, they're all there.
[00:42:48] Pamela: Oh, wow.
[00:42:49] Vanessa: So it was actually one of those things where it was already in the book and it was just a matter of finding the that as a title.
[00:43:00] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:43:01] Pamela: I remember listening to a podcast interview with soliciting on oh yeah. Little Fires Everywhere. And I haven't read the book. It's in my, on my shelf, on my TBR. My Very Isn't an amazing writer. Yeah. And it was really interesting interview actually. And they were talking about the title and she said they just couldn't come up with a title.
[00:43:16] Pamela: So her. Editor said to a, a publish publisher, said, just go through the book again and just highlight anything that you think could be a title. Yeah. And then when she came back, she said there's, did you find anything? She said I don't know. There's little fires everywhere. And that became the title.
[00:43:33] Pamela: I love those stories about they had titles come about.
[00:43:37] Vanessa: Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic actually, it's interesting. So she wrote a book called Everything I Never Told You. Yep. That was her debut and when the US picked me up, they said, we see Celeste S everything I never told you as a comp book to this. Oh, okay.
[00:43:53] Vanessa: Which is very, it's very much in the vein of, I think the comp book for that was the Lovely Bones. So I read that. Book and it's just beautiful. It's a really amazing story. And there is, there's a girl and a lake
[00:44:07] Pamela: You mentioned Vanessa, about we are gonna get on in a minute just to do a few little additional questions for the Substack subscribers. Just getting my questions back. But just before we do that, you mentioned the US publishing, ARM for. Yes. And this is your first book release in the us, is that right?
[00:44:25] Vanessa: Yeah. It'll be my US debut in June next year. So I'm so excited I'm going to New York and meeting my publishing team. Yeah, I can't wait. It's been such an amazing journey with them and just really interesting to see how they do things differently over there and different audience and yeah, it's been really lovely and in some ways it's been eyeopening because I was saying like, I'm very cross genre here, and when we were trying to decide, whether to make me go more crime or whatever, and they said in America you fit very clearly into literary.
[00:45:05] Vanessa: Thriller literary mystery that is a genre over here, and that is just what your book is. And I guess because it's such a huge market, they've just got more room for like little niche aspects. Whereas our market's smaller. And I'm like, I like the sound of that Great. So Nice. I feel like I fit somewhere.
[00:45:24] Vanessa: So it was actually pretty straightforward with them. And I love their cover and it was, it's been an amazing experience. Yeah.
[00:45:33] Pamela: Yeah. Any how did the process go with the editing? Did you have different edits for
[00:45:38] Vanessa: Yeah, so it was interesting. Basically, my Australian editors and US editors took turns.
[00:45:47] Vanessa: So that was also really eye-opening because there were some passengers where my Australian team were like. Suggesting changes and then my US people would come back and say, no, the exact opposite. Oh. So that was in a way really good, because it just shows how subjective it is. Yeah, exactly. And so I actually had to go I really, this is my choice because this person's saying this person's saying that no one's wrong.
[00:46:18] Vanessa: It's just a choice. So I will. Make that choice. But yeah, it was a lot a lot more sort of work than usual.
[00:46:25] Vanessa: 'cause they're very thorough and I don't think I've ever read a book as many times as I have read this. Oh no. I was just by the last one. I'm like, I can, no, I'm done. I'm done. Take it away.
[00:46:38] Pamela: Oh, I can only imagine it would be hell. So you have, you're released this week here in Australia, and you've got another release then in June. So you're going out to New York. Yes. So this is gonna be a really big year for you, isn't it? You've got I know.
[00:46:51] Vanessa: Going
[00:46:51] Pamela: on.
[00:46:52] Vanessa: Yeah. I feel like
[00:46:53] Vanessa: It'll just be like intense right now in December and then intense when I go over there. But yeah there's a lot happening on the horizon and it's really nice to have New York to look forward to. And I'm actually meeting some author friends over there who serendipitously happen to be over there and we are gonna go and do a little retreat in the mountains.
[00:47:14] Pamela: Oh my goodness. How amazing that is gonna
[00:47:16] Vanessa: be like a life highlight I think.
[00:47:18] Pamela: Oh yes. That is gonna be brilliant. Don't go away. 'cause I'm gonna ask you a few more little questions for the Substack people, but all the best with the launch this week, Vanessa. It is. Thank you. Absolutely. Fantastic book.
[00:47:29] Pamela: And if you are listening out there and you haven't got a copy yet. Go and grab yourself a copy because and also set aside some time because you need to just sit down and read it in its entirety. It's so ruining. Yeah.
[00:47:41] Vanessa: Thank you. Thanks so much, Pam.
[00:47:43] Pamela: Okay. Thank you. I won't keep you too much longer.
[00:47:45] Pamela: I know We've been yucking.
[00:47:47] Vanessa: They were great questions. Thank you. You always do the best questions. You're so insightful. Thank you.
[00:47:54] Pamela: I think having the writing background and being a writer helps 'cause you Absolutely. When I'm reading a book, I, me, I think, oh, I wonder how they came up with this idea, or, I wonder what it was writing this part.
[00:48:04] Pamela: And I think I didn't I would've mentioned it if it came up, what did come up about the grief. But it's interesting. It's the ninth anniversary in two days of the death of my best friend nine years ago. Oh, so it's a particularly sensitive week. Yeah. Oh, and I think just reading it was actually good reading it, and like I said, it made me really think about, oh, I wonder.
[00:48:26] Pamela: Up there, cth, what have you been doing? Did, was this what it was like for you? And, all that sort of thing. Yeah.
[00:48:31] Vanessa: Yeah. It's like it nine years ago, but you still, it doesn't go away, you no remember and it still hurts. And
[00:48:39] Pamela: just all the things about the, friendship and teenage friendships and everything that came up.
[00:48:43] Pamela: 'cause we met in the first year of high school.
[00:48:46] Vanessa: Oh, wow. Yeah. Gosh. That is a very, yeah. You would've really been like, wow, okay.
[00:48:54] Pamela: Yeah, we were 40 years friends when she passed away. 53, she died. Mud neuro disease was her own. Oh no, I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh, thank you. No, but I only mention that because it's just interesting at the times that sometimes that you read particular books and things that come up, for you.
[00:49:10] Pamela: So I know.
[00:49:11] Vanessa: Yeah. Yeah. It's good when the book meets you at a right time in your life.
[00:49:16] Pamela: So for the sub stackers, Vanessa, I wanted to ask you and we touched on this in the main interview, but compared to the writing of your previous four books, which your published previous four published books how did the writing of the last illusion go for you? Was it relatively easy in that first draft? Was there, we've talked about lots of revisions 'cause you had the double editing thing, but how was the process compared to your previous writing and revisions?
[00:49:47] Vanessa: In some ways I think this story had the lightest structural edit that I've had of any book.
[00:49:55] Vanessa: I think because it needed to have that big twist that I was very careful. To make sure that it worked. And I don't think I'm the kind of writer who, I think I'm a bit of a lazy writer. I don't think I can do two, three massive structural edits like some people do. I tend to, take a bit longer to write my first draft, but it's usually in pretty good shape.
[00:50:23] Vanessa: And so I know that about myself, that I don't have the patience to write a messy first draft and then go back and back. I just get bored. Or I don't have the focus, I dunno what it is. And I take my hat off to people who can do that. 'cause in some ways it, it's probably more freeing to write a really messy first draft and get the story just out.
[00:50:44] Vanessa: But I don't tend to write like that. I write on a line level. And so it's all polished by the time it's finished. And so then if. The bones of the story don't work. I've lost all this time that I've spent polishing the writing. Yeah. But luckily with this, that didn't happen. It was more cosmetic changes.
[00:51:07] Vanessa: And yeah, thankfully it was the lightest structural edit, but then, that was balanced by the fact that I was working with another publishing house. And so the workload was, a lot more because of that. Because there's just a lot more just small changes. They're not changes to the story, but it's just little things like, obviously I had to Americanize all the words.
[00:51:31] Vanessa: But that's not a huge mental. Do they
[00:51:34] Pamela: give you like a do they give you, a house style sheet to make those changes? Or do they go through in the edits And
[00:51:41] Vanessa: they go through? They go through and just say, what is, what's a dag, like daggy. Yeah, of course.
[00:51:47] Vanessa: What is that? Or what's what's a ringing? A ringing when you're a, third wheel? Yeah. So we had to come up with okay, so they call it a second string rather than a ring and they call it, there's just all these, and like paracetamol, they call it ason or something.
[00:52:06] Vanessa: Oh really? So there's just a lot of that little thing. Yeah. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but every time that you have to read the manuscript is quite a lot. So this was structurally in better shape, but then I had a lot more work to do just in terms of the copy edit and proofing and stuff.
[00:52:21] Pamela: Yeah. So when you sit down, like you say, you polish as you go. So when you sit down, you write, do you write in scenes? Would you write a whole scene in one go and then work on that scene until you get it to the point where you're happy with it before you move on? How does that process work for you?
[00:52:37] Vanessa: I write like I read, so I literally, it's very linear. And I don't write scenes. I write pretty slowly compared to a lot of my writing friends. I am happy with a thousand words a day, but if you do a thousand words a day in a year, you have a book. And so that's just the way I like to work. And so I just go back the day before I read what I've read, which is not all that much.
[00:53:06] Vanessa: So I read what I wrote and then I go from there. And sometimes I'm writing a scene and I'm literally like, I don't really know what I'm, what's gonna happen in this scene. But I think I just know. That there has to be some sort of tension. Obviously with a book like this, you've always got that overarching question, what happened to Paige?
[00:53:29] Vanessa: How did she die? Who did it? Whatever. So there's that to keep you on track. And honestly, like having a, an investigator in the form of Jane, and I imagine it's the same when you have a police or guy who's leading you through, it's actually an easier way to write a story because in some ways you've just got this person who's sniffing out clues.
[00:53:54] Vanessa: So that kind of was a good guide. I was like, okay Jane's gonna find out what happened. Yeah. But I think I work in a very non-structured way. I probably knew the ending around a quarter of the way through though.
[00:54:10] Pamela: Okay. Which is a bit earlier that point. You knew who the.
[00:54:13] Vanessa: I think so. Yeah.
[00:54:15] Vanessa: Yeah. And so I think that made it easier as well. 'cause I knew where I was heading and that doesn't always happen. Like my first book Driftwood, I remember getting to right to the end and saying to my husband, I have to finish this book now and I don't know who did it. And he was like, okay, let's put our thinking caps on.
[00:54:38] Vanessa: And he helped me come up with the Twist. So I've come a long way since then.
[00:54:42] Pamela: Yeah. Like we were saying in the kind of main interview, like every book is different, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. As the more books you write, you do get more of a handle on your process and okay, this is how you know, oh, I've done this, the last four books.
[00:54:56] Pamela: That must be my process. Yeah.
[00:54:57] Vanessa: Yes.
[00:54:58] Pamela: But there's also differences between them too, isn't there? Because of the different story elements that you're working with, and you said like for this one you had that kind of speculative. Aspect that you were bringing in. So there's differences for each book too that make the process different.
[00:55:13] Pamela: That's why
[00:55:13] Vanessa: it doesn't get that much easier, because you're not writing the same thing over and over again. Each book has its own challenges, its own things that kind of are easier and you're thinking, oh, this was easy last time. Why is this so hard? This aspect of it, but it's because it's just a completely new puzzle that you're trying to figure out.
[00:55:33] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:55:34] Pamela: Yeah. And you were saying, you know that for you, the kind of real joy is in that line level writing, yeah. And playing with the words and things like that.
[00:55:43] Pamela: Would you find, so say working on like a paragraph for instance, would you find that you can play around with a paragraph for kind of hours?
[00:55:52] Vanessa: No. No. No. Definitely not. And I think that my journalism. Work really helped in that way. So that beat that out of me. I think before being a journalist, I was much more precious about how I wrote things. I just get it. I don't write a messy first draft, but I do just, I am very much like just open your creative thing and just write like I'm not yeah.
[00:56:20] Vanessa: It's hard to describe. I'm not being pin like finicky about word choice in that first draft. I'm just it's more about opening your veins or, I don't know how to describe it. It's more about letting it flow. Yeah. And not censoring where things are going. I think it's probably more towards the end that we're really working on.
[00:56:42] Vanessa: I. The very small sentence level where, you know, and this was sometimes where my US editor and my Australian editor, the Australian one would be like, this is so descriptive, you can cut out all this stuff. And then the US one would be like, oh, I love this sentence, sleep that, so it's getting down to that more poetic how the sentence reads lyrically down, further down the track.
[00:57:07] Vanessa: But yeah, look, sometimes I will, sometimes if it's like opening a chapter or partic, particularly the opening of the book, I will be very careful about how I word all of that. But I think as I go, I just try and, when I read back the day before, maybe I'm cleaning things up then.
[00:57:28] Pamela: Yeah.
[00:57:29] Vanessa: And making it sound a bit better.
[00:57:30] Pamela: Yeah. Doing a tidy up. Do you find that you are. Thinking about your characters long after you've finished the story and like with your previous books as well, do you ever find yourself thinking about, earlier characters and thinking, yeah, I wonder what they're doing now?
[00:57:47] Vanessa: Yeah, you know what I do? I actually, 'cause a big theme I think in my books is women finding their power. And I often think when I'm in some sort of having some mental breakdown, which happens I'll be like, okay, you have to channel Sylvie from the beautiful words you have to channel. Saskia from dreaming in French.
[00:58:11] Vanessa: Come on. It's like I'm riding these women to find my own strength because I struggle with the same things that they struggle with. And so I actually almost use them as come on, you've created this kickass character who's done this. You can get through this.
[00:58:32] Pamela: So it's like a version of yourself almost that you creating Yeah.
[00:58:35] Pamela: And stepping into those shoes. Yeah.
[00:58:38] Vanessa: So that's how they appear to me as these little. Reminders. You are stronger than this, Vanessa. Come on, get a grip.
[00:58:47] Pamela: Get a grip. Get a grip. Sorry, my message thing on my iPad's going wild and I dunno how to turn the sound off.
[00:58:55] Vanessa: Oh no, it's
[00:58:55] Pamela: alright.
[00:58:56] Pamela: I'll cut it out later. Just a couple more, Vanessa. Yeah. No, I'm loving it. What would you say have been the hardest things that you've wrestled with or the things you've found the most difficult as a published author?
[00:59:10] Vanessa: Oh gosh, that's a big one. We'll be here for three hours. I think I think something that you work out pretty early and, you would've.
[00:59:20] Vanessa: Gone through, I imagine this a bit, Pam, is, there's the market and then there's your creative sort of self. And those two things are very different. And you hear about authors who write for the market and I think some people can do that very successfully. That's not how I write, I know that's, that doesn't work for me.
[00:59:46] Vanessa: So I am very, I have to draw a land, a line in the sand between, this is the publishing industry and this is me as a creative person trying to be true to myself and to remember why I love doing this in the first place. And so I think having a lot of author friends helps because we all struggle with this.
[01:00:10] Vanessa: And I think I have this conversation over and over again, and it's just bringing it back to what's the actual thing that you love about this? Because there's a lot of pressure in the publishing industry, and there's numbers and there's reviews, and all of that can get to you and can be like this niggling voice.
[01:00:28] Vanessa: And I think you just have to shut that down and you have to go back to the writing. And you've gotta go back to the stories and you've gotta just. Just gotta be true to your own creative power, and your own creative self and shut all that out to actually get the work done. But then in some ways, you have to then step into it when you're publicizing a book.
[01:00:51] Vanessa: And, that's quite hard for a lot of authors because we're introverts and that's what allows us to be writers and to be really raw on the page. But it's such a contrast to then get up in front of a room full of people and be performative. And I struggle with that transition. And in some ways that book is, this book is examining some of that.
[01:01:18] Vanessa: It's like the self and how you are. You can be two things. You can be this sort of quiet, deep person, and then you can be this person who is outgoing and is essentially selling their own brand. Yeah. So I think I did put a little bit of that tension that page goes through. And that reflected some of the tensions I have felt.
[01:01:41] Vanessa: And yeah it's a constant work in progress. Yeah. To keep yourself on, in a good mental place and to not get swept up by all of the other stuff. Yeah.
[01:01:51] Pamela: What are some of the things you do, Vanessa, to rejuvenate, that creative spark? If you feel that it's flagging a bit, what are some of your tricks to kind of refresh.
[01:02:02] Vanessa: Getting into nature is a big thing for me. And also, and a friend of mine told me recently, you do this after every book, you say, okay, I'm done. Now I'm giving up. That's it for me. And you just go, I can't do this anymore. And that's actually, you say that every time. And I said, do I? And she's yeah, it's just what you do and that it's that's the way for you to just be able to step away and actually let it all go.
[01:02:31] Vanessa: And then maybe in time you just oh, but actually I've got this interesting story idea. And so maybe it's just taking the pressure off whatever pressure you're feeling, whether it is, it's like the publishing industry or whether you're not actually a published author, but you have all this pressure to become published or, you're just having pressure to find your story sometimes just actually stepping away from it.
[01:02:56] Vanessa: Is the answer. And I think if you do that, then you and you go and fill up your creative cup in other ways. Like I love art and theater and walking and all sorts of other things. And then a creative person, which we're all creative, but a, it will come back in on its own accord.
[01:03:19] Pamela: Do you? Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. I think, sometimes you need to have those breaks and not be thinking about the consciously, about the next story. And like you say, then you'll go off and do other things. Like for me it's horse riding or maybe just going off on a little road trip or something and just yeah, traveling, consciously forgetting about it.
[01:03:41] Pamela: And then gradually, yeah, a little voice will start, doesn't it? In your head it's oh, okay. There is another story there.
[01:03:47] Vanessa: Yeah. I think in some ways the worst thing that you can do is force. Is forced things. I know you have to sometimes with deadlines and stuff, but that's why I just write a thousand words a day.
[01:04:00] Vanessa: I'm like, I'm just gonna take my time. I don't write a book a year anymore, and I wanna remember the joy. Yeah. And actually enjoy what I'm doing rather than resenting it. Yeah. And when I get to the point where I'm like, I'm giving it up, it's when I've got to the point where I am resenting it. So stepping away is taking the lid off a pressure cooker.
[01:04:21] Pamela: Yeah. Have you written another book? I know that you wrote, you finished this book a while ago because you've had the big lead up to publication. So have you finished another book since then?
[01:04:31] Vanessa: Yes, I've spent this year writing the next book. So yeah, so I think that's why I was like, okay, I need a break.
[01:04:39] Vanessa: So I'm definitely gonna have a big break over the summer and just, yeah, I had some ideas for another one and then I was just like, oh, you know what? I just, I think I just need to, I don't know, and also just read some books. Like I haven't had a lot time for reading and that's also the, that's also my advice, like just read a lot.
[01:05:01] Vanessa: 'cause whenever I get disillusioned and think that I can't write anymore, if I then read an amazing book, I'm like, oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. I love the idea of writing and it gets me excited again.
[01:05:13] Pamela: You get inspired again. Yeah, exactly.
[01:05:16] Vanessa: Yeah.
[01:05:16] Pamela: So is the new one already got a publication date set?
[01:05:20] Vanessa: No, not at all.
[01:05:21] Vanessa: It's actually contracted in the US but not in Australia.
[01:05:25] Pamela: Okay.
[01:05:25] Vanessa: So yeah, not sure what's happening with the new one. So yeah, that's a bit of a to be advised. Yeah.
[01:05:35] Pamela: I will be looking forward to that when it does come out. I'm gonna let you go Vanessa, 'cause we've been talking for an hour, over an hour. Oh. And I know it's been so
[01:05:43] Vanessa: lovely.
[01:05:44] Pamela: Always lovely to chat and I'm really excited to come and see you tomorrow night and celebrate with you. Oh,
[01:05:48] Vanessa: thank you for coming.
[01:05:49] Vanessa: 'cause I know it's a bit of a hike for you, but it'll be lovely. It will
[01:05:52] Pamela: be, it'll be fantastic. Aw. So thank you. And I'll see you then. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks
[01:06:00] Vanessa: so much. Bye
[01:06:02] Pamela: bye. Just press stop.