Writing Women’s Lives: Casey Nott with Anne Freeman
“You can do amazing things when you approach it from a place of high self-love and self-worth.”
Buy FORGOTTEN | Buy ME THAT YOU SEE
📚💞 Join contemporary fiction writers Anne Freeman and debut author Casey Knott as they delve into their engaging novels 'Forgotten' and 'Me that You See.' In this episode, Anne and Casey discuss the extraordinary challenges their female protagonists face, from grappling with lost memories to navigating unexpected life changes. Tune in to hear about their unique writing processes, the importance of friendship and self-love in their stories, and the journey from draft to publication🎙️🖋️
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction to Anne Freeman
00:31 Meet Casey Nott
03:58 Themes of Identity and Reinvention
04:57 Writing Process and Inspirations
11:45 Friendships and Female Support
27:51 Writing Challenges and Craft Books
30:15 The Journey to Publication
32:31 Dealing with Rejection and Feedback
44:16 Dream Moments in the Writing Process
47:23 The Heart of Writing
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Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
Anne: Hello. I am Anne Freeman and I write contemporary fiction about women who are stuck in life and the extraordinary ways they shake themselves loose. My stories are always engaging and sometimes funny with reluctant adventures, sexy escapades, and friendships that uplift. My work has been awarded in the Romance Writers of Australia, Valerie Pav Award.
Anne: The Hawkeye Manuscript Development Prize, the Grindstone Literary International Novel Prize, and various short story competitions. I'm thrilled to be sharing the convo couch with my friend and fellow Hawkeye Publishing author Casey Knot. Casey writes contemporary fiction that celebrates women and explores the challenges they face in modern society.
Anne: As a former accountant and nutritionist, she's had a wide breadth of life experience from which to draw. Inspiration Forgotten is her debut novel, and it was long listed in the 2022 Hawkeye Manuscript Development prize. Today we'll be talking about Casey's debut novel, forgotten, and my second novel, me that you see.
Anne: So Casey, what is your book about?
Casey: Thank you for that lovely introduction. My book is about a woman who has a traumatic brain injury and she wakes up in hospital thinking that she's a 30-year-old woman, but she's in fact 40 and she has lost the past 10 years of her life. Quite a formative decade.
Casey: Her world is very different. She is coming. Into this new life where she had been a high-powered lawyer very career driven, married to a different man and now she finds herself a stay at home mom with a 4-year-old and is married to her husband's best friend. So things are very different for her, and she grapples with that change and loss of self.
Anne: I think the, being married to the husband's best friend is possibly my favorite part of the story, where she wakes up and when she finds this out, she her reaction is like, ick. But he's like a brother to me. Yes.
Casey: So he's not a stranger to her, but he's in the sense that he's now her husband. So yes, there is definitely a shift.
Casey: And that comes with its own challenges. And I'm not pining for my husband's best friend. I should just say that now. No,
Anne: that's a full disclaimer. In no way is this auto fiction.
Casey: Lexi finds herself in a life that she hadn't quite prepared herself for.
Anne: Would you like to speak to that? Absolutely. And I think this may be a fish out of water element perhaps as well. So my protagonist is Lexi. She's a barista turned cam model For those who are not familiar with that term, cam models are online sex workers, so her relationship with single father Ethan has grown cold before it's had really time to smolder, and she's found herself thrust into quite a domestic role that she's not used to as a 20 something. When a friend from her past emerges in startling circumstances just after Lexi loses her barista job, she glimpses the world of camming and decides that she's going to.
Anne: Shake things up by giving that a go. Things start to go wrong for her. However, when she fails to own her choices and instead she hides what she's doing from everyone in her life. So as you can imagine, that's where the adventure begins. Absolutely. And I think all
Casey: women find themselves doing that sometimes when they lose bit.
Casey: What online sex work? Not that.
Casey: When they lose those parts
Anne: you can
Casey: lose everything.
Anne: Absolutely. And I think, a loss of identity is one of the big themes in your novel because Ava, she has a very clear definition of who she is at age 30 and when she wakes up in that hospital room and she is. Aged 40 and people are having to describe her life to her.
Anne: She's really taken aback by what she learns because it strayed so far from the path she had been on and the clear trajectory of where she thought she was going, perhaps where she thought she would land at aged 40. And I think it's really fascinating for the reader because it forces you to.
Anne: Look at your own life with that sort of critical eye and ask yourself, what would you do if you were put into her position? What would you make of your life? And I think that's one of the strongest elements of your book, is that it really invites readers to get very reflective and they become part of the story as a result of that.
Anne: So what was the inspiration for Forgotten?
Casey: I think it was that very thing of. Being thrust into my own life choices. And maybe not recognizing how I got there. I was having a lot of chats with moms at the school gate and, how are you? I'm fine, but not really fine. And we were all hanging on by a thread and it had been locked down in Melbourne as well, so I was quite lonely.
Casey: I was at home all the time with children who I adore and very much planned on having and wanted. My character did not plan on having the child that she had but I still found myself in an unfamiliar life some days thinking. I used to sit in boardrooms and run meetings and wear cute suits.
Casey: Cute suits. So cute. I know. I high heels all day running. I would run up and down Colin Street in heels. I was, anyway, dead to me now, but that's okay. Something, I'm not sorry that I've shed over the years and high heels are what? But I just, I started to wonder, okay, what would happen? If I couldn't remember how I got here because sometimes the days were hard and long.
Casey: And I just thought it would be fun if not a little bit cruel to, to put that into my book. And yes, we've gotta put the protagonist through their paces. Yes, it made for a more interesting read. And yeah, so I just really turned her life upside down and took away people that could have helped smooth that path for her.
Casey: Like I think if I found myself in the same situation I'd still have the same husband we've been together longer than 10 years, but he would help me, he would make it easy for me to transition back into my life. So I couldn't have it too easy for her. As you have to put lots of obstacles in the way for these characters to get back to maybe not who they were before, but who they need to be or who.
Casey: The new version, and I think we all have reinventions, constant reinventions of self as we age women particularly. And that's great. I love that I'm about to turn 40 and I'm looking forward to the next reinvention of that. And That's right. It's an exciting era.
Anne: I think we all go through a metamorphosis.
Anne: I think, in life as in books, we can never really return to. Who we were, but we perhaps with support, with the courage, we might invent something that's, new and more meaningful than perhaps even what we had before. And I think Ava really does that. I think it's a very uplifting story for all the trials and tribulations that you put her through.
Anne: I think ultimately it's very satisfying. Thank you. I hope so. But yes, absolutely. I threw so much at Lexi and I think during the writing process I feel bad. I I'll say to my protagonist I'm really sorry, but it's all gonna work out in the end. You need this to happen in order to get where you're going.
Anne: Otherwise I I feel like I've got the voodoo doll and I'm sticking the needles in.
Casey: I remember feeling very anxious 50 pages before your book ended, thinking really, there's not enough time. There's not enough time. But of course there was because you are a master. And that's the magic of writing, isn't it?
Casey: We can make things as terribly uncomfortable as we like knowing. That there's usually hope. I think the best books, maybe not round everything off in a neat little bundle, but I think a great book will leave you with a sense of hope, that hope for more, hope for, a deeper version of whatever they leave you with.
Anne: I agree. And I think we might not always get the ending that we want as readers, but if the reader can. Experience it and feel satisfied, ultimately satisfied and surprised, I think is what we need to aim for. I think that's what really delights readers. 'cause you don't want it to be predictable, but at the same time you need it to be satisfying, plausible ticking all those boxes.
Anne: Absolutely while being delighted. Easy. Yeah. What could be easier than that as a writer?
Casey: And I think thinking about the characters long after you've read that last page is just the testament of a great book to me. Thinking about what they're doing. I still think about them like they're real people because I was, they are right.
Casey: They're so real. I was with them for years in my head and draft after draft and revisions, and they become actual people and. I hope that, I hope they stay people forever in my mind. But
Anne: absolutely, I always love the moment where so often my protagonists are, I draw from my own experiences and.
Anne: But at a certain point they become their own people. So there might be a starting point of, this is a little bit like me, or this is a bit like something that happened to me. But at a certain point in writing they just establish their own personalities, their own persona.
Anne: They start acting of their own volition sometimes, which is really interesting when it kicks off. But I think that's the moment where they become real people like friends. I think to me, I love that.
Casey: I think that happens for me during the dialogue portions when I'm writing, where they can really come alive.
Casey: And, I can only do so much up until that point, but then when they start talking to one another. I know technically I am also doing the talking, which sounds funny to say it like that details, but when they start talking, I see it in my mind like a movie. And those conversations just pour out.
Casey: I love writing dialogue. It's my favorite part because that's when you get the truth. You can say things in dialogue that you can't say when you're writing a paragraph because it can be far less structured and you can use more colloquial language and swearing. I do
Anne: swear a little bit. Sure. Throw a bit of fruitiness in there.
Anne: I think the dialogue between Ava and her, her new best friend Rachel. I think that was like some of the most pleasurable reading because it read so true. And I know that Rachel is based on a very good friend of yours and the relationship that you have with her.
Anne: Shout out to Holly. But I think be mortified. She's used to it. But I think. That it was, in those interactions that you feel as though you are part of the friendship and maybe it reminds you of, of someone that you know, or a relationship that you have and, women supporting women, friendships between women.
Anne: I think that's a massive part of your book and mine. We might not share, a lot of overlap in the situations that we've created. Yours is, very domestic and mine is set against the backdrop of the online sex industry. But one of the things that we really share is those relationships between women.
Anne: And I wonder if you could let us in on what inspired you to create those characters, good and bad, because I think there's a few characters. In Ava's earlier life. So at 30 the people that she's hanging out with and the friends that she has, it looks different to when she's 40.
Anne: And I wonder if you might speak to that a little bit.
Casey: Oh I think in your early twenties. Particularly in that corporate environment where it's quite competitive and cutthroat friendship looks a little bit different and people are not shy stepping all over you if they have to get the job done or to get the promotion.
Casey: We're a lot more selfish in general in our twenties because of course we are, and we don't have children to look after usually, and things just look a little bit different. And I think when I had my kids, I didn't really expect to make friends. Again, like I thought friend making was for when I was young and then I made these amazing women friends and Holly, who you mentioned in particular was a friend that I could be really honest with in those days that perhaps weren't going so or just things that kids throw at you just out of the blue.
Casey: You can't prepare. For motherhood.
Anne: Sometimes it's just having a witness, isn't it? With motherhood, because like you said before, we chose this path, it wasn't thrust upon us. We chose. To embark upon this motherhood journey, but at the same time, you can actively seek something out and also have a day where it's really bloody challenging.
Anne: And it's nice to have those friends that you can say that to and they won't judge you. They'll empathize, they'll talk it out with you and. There you go. There's no judgment.
Casey: But I think you get a little bit less tolerant with bad friends as you get older. You realize that, hang on, I think life's a bit too short for this. And maybe you shed a little bit of dead weight as you get older, and that's fine. That's just evolution. But these friends that. Just accept you with no judgment and you know that you can call them and they'll pick you up and fix things and or bring over dinner or whatever you need.
Casey: And that is just the scaffold of my life, those female friendships. And so if any of my characters feel relatable or they feel real, that is because they are real women who I have then amalgamated into these characters. Yeah, same. I wrote them because I missed my friends. It was, I was writing in lockdown this first draft.
Casey: I was lonely. Holly had moved away, which we won't talk about because don't upset her. Still painful. Raw. She and I missed her. And so I wrote that Rachel character for her because I thought she would thought, think it was funny to see us on paper. And I thought my might read this book and think that it was funny.
Casey: And she gently guides her rather than tells her who. She's like a lot of the other characters, her sister's a bit impatient with her. This is, you wanted this is who you are, basically stop complaining and get on with it. But Rachel's far more gentle and far more accommodating and forgiving and just gently gets her to where she needs to be.
Anne: That's right. She's the one grounding presence in the novel, I think. And Ava at first. Rachel is a stranger to her. So she's really having to get reacquainted or acquainted with this person who, she didn't know 10 years ago. And it's really like the way that you've engineered it.
Anne: Is very touching to have, , Rachel has a very gentle approach. She doesn't burst into Ava's life and expect to take up residence, as she. As she was before the accident, but she's just this one constant. She's just always there. She's always available. She's always reassuring and there's humor in it as well.
Anne: And I think that maybe through the relationship with Rachel, Ava for the first time gets the sense that, , her life isn't the nightmare that it looks like on the surface when she first opens her eyes in hospital.
Casey: Yeah. And there's quite a weird power dynamic at play in those early relationships where these people know her but she doesn't know them.
Casey: And so she has to learn to trust that person who has made these decisions while she's in that memory lapse period. And she gets an inkling very early that Rachel is a good egg. But. Yeah, very quickly she gets that reinforced by those around her and by just, being around Rachel and I think some friendships are just like that.
Casey: That when you meet someone you just know straight away it's a little bit, I imagine it's dating. I've not dated him some time, but I imagine we're not the experts on that. That is not what this podcast is about. No, it's not tips, but I think that gut instinct, you learn to hone over years of just.
Casey: By being middle aged, you can trust that. You can trust that feeling and you should sometimes, and sometimes when we ignore that, we get punished in absolutely other ways. And
Casey: the friendship that you had in your book, I found very relatable. That had maybe gone cold and then gets reimagined, which I loved.
Anne: That's right. And I think, there's certain instances where maybe you have been separated for whatever reason, and as soon as you're back together again, it's no time has passed at all.
Anne: And I think that, with Lexi and her friend Jamie there's this kind of picking up where they left off. But there's also, because they were friends in childhood, there's, or teenagehood, there's that kind of. Juvenile element to it as well. So they banter a little bit and I know you are, but what am I?
Anne: Even though, they're women essentially, in their late twenties, early thirties. And, writing the dialogue between those two characters was really enjoyable for me as well. For all the reasons you mentioned is that you are using experiences from your own life.
Anne: There's also in mind Lexi's best friend in her sort of current life is Lynn. And Lynn really is a quite a grounding presence for Lexi as well. They work together as baristas in a cafe and. I think Lynn's a Yeah, Lynn's a bit of a Rachel. But you know where the trouble begins for Lexi?
Anne: When she starts camming, she doesn't tell Lynn. So not only does she not tell Ethan who she's is, her, her boyfriend, who she lives with and he has a young son who. Is four years old. She doesn't tell Lynn as either. And I think that's where it starts to go off the rails because Lexi's lying to everyone, even the people that like Lynn, who would not extend any judgment to her whatsoever.
Anne: But that's where she runs into trouble. So she makes this whole new cast of friends in the second act. And doesn't really. Bring Lynn into what's going on in her life until the third act. But you mentioned Casey, that you were writing this during Lockdowns, Melbourne Lockdowns.
Anne: So can you tell me like, what was your writing process like? Are you a plotter or a pants? I'm a
Casey: definitely a answer haphazard at best. Don't, I don't make plans beyond what's happening in the next chapter. Really. And I just survived on scraps of writing time. In that first 12 months, I met Holly Auer.
Casey: Shout out to other Holly hashtag other Holly. And I know she listens to this podcast. She and I met online and she was writing a novel and. I just slipped into her dms and said, oh wow, that's so great. I'd love to do that. I tried to do it years ago. And she's let's do it. Let's do it together.
Casey: Let's trade 3000 words a week. One week you'll send, one week you'll receive. We'll critique each other's work. And we did that for 12 months back and forth. And this novel would not have ended up. In as good a shape as it did at the end of that first draft, if not for her input, because I was making lots, I'm not a trained writer, but I was making lots of mistakes in that very first chapter that I sent her head hopping and just things that probably would've made editing a nightmare.
Anne: Yeah,
Casey: the cardinal
Anne: rules were broken.
Casey: Yes, and I didn't know the rules, so I didn't know what I was breaking. Because I'm a big follower of rules. But she just set me on a path that meant I could finish it because I think the tendency to abandon a draft when it, and I would've hit a wall because I was breaking too many rules, and I think it would've just got to a point where it was so messy that I couldn't have gone forward, and it may never have been finished.
Casey: So I will be forever grateful to Holly Fir. For that. But yeah, it was three hours a week for 12 months. That's how I wrote the first draft. And I think if you are an aspiring writer, I don't like to say aspiring writer because I think emerging. You write emerging. I like emerging. Yeah, absolutely.
Casey: Emerging writers, if you think you don't have enough time to do it. You really do, but you just have to carve out even tiny bits, 15 minutes a day will write you a novel eventually. Absolutely. So the starting is the hardest part, and then you just carry on and then before you know it. 60, 70,000 words there.
Casey: I might be able to cajole that into something and you can, and it's magic when
Anne: it comes off. It's great. That's right. And I think, you and I both have young children, so you know, being able to carve out that time for writing is challenging, but at the same time. You might not have a full day of writing that you can manage, but you might be able to scrape together 15 minutes here, half an hour there.
Anne: I remember when I was writing me that, you see it was we went into lockdown. I think I was maybe two thirds of the way through the first draft and lockdown started and. It scrambled me for a little while. 'cause returning to Adelaide, my debut novel I wrote when my kids were very little, so I had two children under three, and I wrote the first draft mainly in the Google Docs app of my iPhone while I was breastfeeding my daughter, which sounds like a mad thing, but that's what happened.
Anne: I was able to get a draft together that way. But then, my children were older the second time around and there was no babe in arms that was just happily, nursing. I had, a toddler and a preschooler kind of running around and to contend with. I remember, when Ededie would go down for her nap, I would sit with Davey on the couch and he would watch, bluey or whatever it was, and I would just have my laptop on my lap and I'd be typing away that way.
Anne: So I think I. Being adaptable is really important as well. I know a wonderful Melbourne writer called Kelly Croy, and I believe she takes her laptop and she gets words in when she's waiting at her son's soccer practice. I think it was at was it kate Grenville. It was Kate Grenville.
Anne: She spoke about writing in slivers of time for the same reason, and she wrote quite a seminal scene from one of her books on the inside of a Panadol packet. Amazing. She was pick like picking up her kids from school and she didn't have any paper and she, she broke open, open the Panadol box and wrote it in there.
Anne: And I think this is the wonder of women because we for whatever reason able to multitask. And as much as we love when we don't have to, like I love to monotask so much. What is that? What even is that? But much of our lives is, we're forced into multitasking. And I think if you can.
Anne: Identify those slivers of time and utilize them, then you are right. You will have a draft.
Casey: Absolutely. Actually, this morning, it's funny you say that. I was in the shower and always in the shower these ideas will come and I have a plot hole in my latest whip and it just came. I'm like.
Casey: So I'm screaming Wet half naked. Bring mommy a pen because I had to get it on a post-it note just quickly before it,
Anne: because it would go write it on the screen
Casey: in the steam. Oh, I know. It was like that movie. I know what you did last summer. Yeah. Very like that. And I just now cling onto any of those moments when they come.
Casey: And even yesterday I was so busy. I had my 4-year-old home all day and I wrote 2000 words in cracks of time while he played Lego or whatever. So the busier I am, the more productive I become when I have less on and more time, I suddenly am able to waste mountains of time. So I think I just should stay busy.
Casey: For a while until I get this draft done.
Anne: Absolutely. But I think that's a mindset thing as well, because being home with your 4-year-old, you could easily have just said, okay, today's not a writing day. But the fact that you, yeah, but the fact that you've opened it up and you know any sentence that you capture is a sentence more than you had yesterday.
Anne: And you, it's impossible to write a novel in zero words per day, but anything above zero, literally anything above zero, you will begin. Working on a draft and I think we, we like to have the luxury of, sitting down and having a whole day and, cups of tea and how beautiful. And I think Hollywood has a lot to answer for as well, because whenever any writer is writing a novel, they rent a cabin in the woods.
Casey: Oh, you should read Emma Ton's book. She's got a beautiful writer's cabin in her story and agreed. They just it's, there's no perfect time. I know we've joked before that. There's a little I don't pretend to hold a candle to you when it comes to writing the steamy bits in my novel, but I do have a one sexy bit.
Casey: You, you do Okay for yourself, sister. There? There's a couple of bits, but there's one in particular that I wrote with poor patrol in the background, which was not my ideal scenario. No, and I, that does not translate on the page. It doesn't time. There's just. There's no perfect time.
Anne: Just do it.
Anne: Yeah. Good advice. So with that said, what were some of your challenges while you were writing the book? I think we covered quite a few of them just then, but from a writing craft perspective, perhaps what were some of the challenges?
Casey: Yes. Because I didn't know a lot of the rules I had to go and self.
Casey: Self-teach. And I've used a few craft books over the years. My problem with a craft book is I find what I don't get very far in before I am overflowing with ideas. So I might read a few chapters. I do love Stephen King's on writing. That's one of my favorites. You recommended Anne Lamos Bird by Bird, which was beautiful.
Casey: I loved that. But I. Really have to get to the end of that. It's quite a slog because I'm in my mind, I just wanna go back to my work, which I think is the making of a great craft book. If it makes you feel like you've lit a fire under you that they're good save the Cat is also quite good. Yeah. But there's plenty of resources everywhere, online, books lots of short courses you can do.
Casey: I still have found though the best way to learn is by going through it's, I dunno, it's a bit like, going on a bear hunt. Can't go over it, can't go under, wanna go through it. And by doing, I have learned a lot by doing that first draft, by going through rounds of edits, by going through a structural edit.
Casey: I have learned a lot. Everyone that's been through a structural edit will know the pain to which I refer. But it's good pain, it's productive pain, and it feels like at the end you have a far better product that you could ever have had on your own. And it does take a village to get a book baby out into the world.
Casey: And I think my team, which is your team, our team at Hawkeye was amazing for guiding that process and. Holding my hand. I was pretty green in the process. And they never made me feel silly or, inferior in any way. It was just a very, like a firm guiding hand, but gentle, which I needed. So I think we're all still learning as well.
Casey: Like we're, we never stop
Anne: I totally agree about Hawkeye Publishing. I think they are such a guiding light. So I think we had a similar path to publication. So we were both finalists in the Hawkeye manuscript development prize. I was, I think a year or two before you with returning to Adelaide. So what was your experience there?
Anne: Did that kind of lead into your path to publication?
Casey: Yes. So I had finished the draft and kind of manipulated as far as I could go. And then Googled, what do you do now? 'cause I hadn't written a query, I hadn't pitched. And the manuscript development prize had about two days left, I think, before the application closed.
Casey: So I entered, and got a call a few months later standing in my pantry, which is where I charged my phone. And that was from Carolyn, our editor, and said, you've been long listed. And that I felt like that was a pivotal moment where someone who I didn't know, who had no, personal investment in me gave me positive feedback and that it was.
Casey: Okay. To call myself a writer now and that this dream might be realized one, and yeah it just felt like it was okay to, it was okay to believe now it was okay to believe in myself and to think that I had made something pretty great.
Anne: Yes I had the same exact experience because I had shared my first draft probably too early, because I also was very green and didn't know anything about anything.
Anne: At least you had Holly Auer. I was just like, like Nigel, no friends by myself. But it was the first inkling that what I had made wasn't terrible. Because I had friends read it and say, yeah, it's great. My friends are very generous, kind people, so I feel they wanna love it. That's right.
Anne: They want to love it, they want to encourage me. And as much as I appreciated that, which I did receiving that feedback from, someone in the publishing industry being Hawkeye Publishing, that unlocked everything for me. That was the green light to pursue it. Yeah.
Anne: Rather than just put it away and yeah. And get on with something else.
Casey: I totally agree. Except then when the shortlist came out and I was not on the shortlist, I basically laid down and cried whole day. No, did you? And I went through a spiral of, oh, that was a total waste of time.
Casey: So I went from one extreme to the other and I don't know what I'm doing. And my husband took one look at me and he went, look, I'm gonna leave you to this for today, but I think tomorrow you might need to. Regroup.
Anne: Yeah.
Casey: Put on your big girl pants. So yeah. And then they said that they were still happy to work with me anyway, as provided I.
Casey: Took on board what they were saying needed to happen into the structural edit. I'm like, yeah, I, what I'm told.
Anne: So after I long listed in the, I think it was the 2021 Hawkeye Prize with returning to Adelaide I thought, okay, I'm going to invest in a structural edit now and. Obviously they're offered by various state writers center.
Anne: There's writers that offer them privately, but Hawkeye Publishing actually offer page structural edits as well. And I figured, someone there thinks that my book has potential, so I'm gonna go with them. And part of that process was. You book in and they allocate a week for someone to read your manuscript and at the end of that week you receive a report and you can have a one-on-one Zoom as well with the editor.
Anne: So I had a meeting with Carolyn Martines, so she elected to, to do the structural edit for me herself rather than giving it to one of the team members. So that was very exciting in and of itself. And I, being a little bit skeptical and questioning my abilities as we do, because we are writers and we're, we have a very flimsy, exoskeleton, raging impost.
Anne: I guess 'cause she said, I love your book. I love your book. And she was essentially offering me a publishing deal. Because the structural edit revealed that there really wasn't much structurally to change. There was, some line edits. There was some spelling conventions that still haunt my dreams that I got wrong.
Anne: But other than that, it wasn't a case of, tearing it apart and building it back together again, which is what I was. Psyching myself up for, I was like, I'm gonna do this. Whatever is called for I will do no matter how painful. And it transpired that wasn't required.
Anne: And I said to Carolyn, so if my book's so good, why didn't I win the Hawkeye prize? Was she not a judge that year? And she said basically between the winner. The short list and the long list, there's hardly any difference. At a certain point it's just going to be a group of people sitting around a desk having to choose a winner, because the lineup in that, the top three, the short list and the long list.
Anne: You, it's a hairs difference in terms of the quality of work. And you could apply that,
Casey: you could apply that to the publishing industry in general. If you submit to whoever, a large publisher and they don't pick it up, that could be not because it wasn't great, it could be because they already have a true crime novel on their book at the moment, or they're not, look, they're looking for a rocom to fill their spot in March, I think we take everything personally. Rejection is all internalized. And from what I've heard, writers get rejected all the time, not because they're not great, just. Because it's not the right time for that particular book, and it's a very fickle industry. They could be really into one genre today
Anne: and
Casey: next week it's something else.
Anne: So that's right. And I think that's such a wonderful point to raise for emerging writers and established writers because, as we said we we don't have. A robust, confidence that can withstand any blow. I think all of the writers I know, we feel all the rejections in our bones and I think it's a really good point to make that often manuscripts are passed on due to market.
Anne: Trends or like you said, that there might be, we've filled that crime spot for this month. I know of a writer who had, a, an extraordinary manuscript and she submitted it to a publisher and got all the way to the final sort of process just before being signed. And it was a queer World War II story.
Anne: And she won prizes. She, there's no doubt that this is a talented writer. And just before they signed her they went to acquisitions and someone in another department said, I've just signed a queer World War II story. And that was it for her. So that's not a reflection on her work, but often we don't have visibility of that.
Anne: All we receive is either the rejection email. Or nothing, or radio silence. Because the publishers don't silence because they don't have the resources to be able to respond to everyone. Often you just don't hear and the time lapses and you figure out that you haven't gotten through.
Anne: But there's so many internal factors at play that we really must remind ourselves of, and we must remind our friends of if they're receiving rejections that the work. Good, but good work is probably 10% of the consideration. Yes. But it's
Anne: the
Casey: thing we feel, oh, of course. It just feels visceral and even after the book is out.
Casey: And then our good friend Kylie, or has recommended to me many times with her strongest possible recommendation to not read reviews. Stay away from good reads to put a ban on it. I am yet to he that advice because I can't help myself. I know there come a day when there be a terrible review and.
Casey: I'll probably be back to crying on the couch for the day.
Anne: You know what I love? There was a time where Sally Hepworth would read out her one star reviews on Instagram. She doesn't do it anymore, but God, it was fabulous because it was like she was reclaiming something and often. The reviews were really not reflective of her work.
Anne: It was more reflective of the reader purchasing the wrong book. If you don't read in that genre, you're probably not going to enjoy it. And I think there was one review once, I don't know if it was one of hers, but the description was it's like this author is making it up as they go along.
Anne: And it's like you just described fiction writing.
Casey: And the ones that give one star, but it's oh, I didn't finish. No. And then they've a whole lot of opinions. It's hang on a minute. I don't think you, you're in a position to give it one star if you haven't read the whole thing. But look, the best advice I've been given is the book does not belong to you.
Casey: After you put it out into the world, the book belongs to the reader, and that's it. You've done your best, you've done all you could do at that point. And that is one of the most magical parts of the whole process though, is when a reader comes to you and says, I loved this book and couldn't stop thinking about it.
Casey: Yeah. A lot of women in my inbox are all in love with Tom, the husband character. So that is the best bit that makes all the other stuff worth it. If one of those messages really makes it all worth it.
Anne: Absolutely. And readers that will say, and I know that you've had a fair few of these as well, readers that will say, I finished it in two days.
Anne: I love that I finished it in one sitting. And I always say to my husband, because, again, if you get a good review, you go oh, are they just being really nice? It's like you devalue anything that points to your competency. Why are we like this? I will always say to my husband like,
Anne: you can't fake that reading a book in two days. You can't fake that. That is a page turner. You might have someone who really likes you is your friend or really likes, your profile on Instagram and they're really committed to finishing the book and giving you a good review.
Anne: Like maybe that's that can happen. But they're not gonna finish it in two days. It's gonna take three months and they're reading two pages a night
Casey: and they probably don't go out of their way to be effusive with their love of it. At first I thought, oh gosh, everyone's just being really nice. Yeah.
Casey: And then a few roll in and you're like maybe I'm, yeah. And also I don't know that person. Okay. And again, meeting the most amazing people because we start chatting and then all of a sudden we're having a mini book club in my dms, which I never be shy. To message an author and tell them that you love their book or talk about their book.
Casey: They love that. We don't, we can't get enough of that. Our egos just swell
Anne: up and we love it. I know. It's such a good day and that DM will get read out at family Dinner. I'm sharing that, like how was your day today? It was excellent. Let me read this.
Casey: My kids are too little to really care yet, I think.
Casey: How old are
Anne: your kids though? We've, you've
Casey: got
Anne: eight, six, and five. So I've got eight and six. I've got eight and six. And they're into it, but are they, yeah, I think. So Davey recently entered a coloring competition and talking about, how like understanding that it's not always about the work.
Anne: I really coached him about that. He was like, mommy, I think I'm gonna win. And I said I'm so glad that you feel confident. How do you feel about your drawing? Do you feel that it's the best you can do? Yes, I'm very pleased with it. And I said, I want you to hold onto that feeling because whatever happens with this competition.
Anne: It shouldn't impact the way that you feel right now about your excellent work. And they announced the winners yesterday and he wasn't on the list. And I tried to bring him into some of the reasons that they might award someone else. I'm like, they might prioritize little kids that have had a go.
Anne: They might not be looking for, perfectly rendered dinosaurs. They might be looking for the finger painting or whatever it is, and it was such an interesting learning experience for him to have the confidence within. So to not let those external opinions. Impact the way he feels about his work.
Anne: So maybe it's the fact that he's a sort of a creative soul that, that he's interested in my writing experience and my writing successes. But what a great lesson. And
Casey: for all writers, don't let that magical drawing, that magical manuscript be devalued because someone you don't know doesn't like it.
Casey: That's right. And my 6-year-old, I'm gonna write a book, but I'm just gonna take it straight to the library because this publishing business seems to take a long time and I don't think I have that kind of time to, so he is just all about the business of getting the job. That's smart. Yeah.
Casey: . Good for him. I think so. Maybe I shoulda thought of that.
Anne: Yeah. Where were we on that one? I know
Casey: straight to the library libraries are the best.
Anne: That's right. You mentioned how special it is when readers connect with your work, particularly those people that you've never met before.
Anne: What are some of the other dream moments that you've had in this process?
Casey: I think getting that initial call that I mentioned in my pantry, it was amazing. That was the start. And then I had another magical call again in the pantry. , I don't live in the pantry. I should, you should. Good things happen there.
Casey: I charge my phone in there, so my phone's often in there. And I went in and it was Carol and our editor and she said, we've sold the rights for the audio book. And that was another moment where I thought, okay, yeah. That's massive. This feels like a little bit of traction. This feels like on a basic level, more people will get.
Casey: To hear now this story. And I am just so thrilled that it's gonna be brought to life in audio. I cannot wait to hear it. I've picked an actor for it. It's amazing. She's,
Anne: that's wonderful.
Casey: Yeah, that was awesome.
Anne: It's important to let the, podcast listeners know that for a small press like Hawkeye Publishing.
Anne: There isn't automatic audio book rights. Some of the bigger publishing houses, they might have their own audio book production arm or they have existing affiliations with some of the bigger audio producers. But for Hawkeye Publishing, a small press, each title is assessed on its merit and on the market, marketability and all of these things.
Anne: So the fact that you as a debut author. Have sold audiobook rights is massive. It's not something that should be taken for granted. 'cause it really is, indicative of your excellent work and the market readiness, for a story like that as well.
Casey: Thank you. That's so kind.
Casey: I'm just thrilled that people enjoy it. I feel like I need to read it again, like I need to listen to the audio book again once it's out. I'm a massive listener. I know. I'll be listening to it. Is it weird to listen to your own audio book? Totally. It's fine. I remember once I'm part of a group called Melbourne Writers Club and we meet once a month in the city.
Anne: If any Melbourne writers out there wanna come along, slide into my Instagram dms and I'll give you the details. But I remember the first time I went along, I returning to Adelaide had just come out and so I put it in my handbag very tentatively to be like, if anyone asked, I could go yeah, here's my book.
Anne: And I realized like coming home on the train coming home from Flinder Street Station, I had forgotten to bring a book to read. I had come in on the train with a friend and we chatted all the way. On the way home, I realized I didn't have anything to read, and so I pulled out returning to Adelaide on.
Anne: Someone's gonna take a photo of me and put it on Instagram and I'll be like, publicly shamed as that loser who's reading their own book. Didn't happen, missed it. By that,
Casey: I think that would've been a great caption. You would've totally run with that. No shame. Oh,
Anne: absolutely.
Casey: Such a page
Anne: Turner
Casey: can't even put it down, even though I know it happens.
Anne: So Casey, one of my favorite questions that our friend Pam Hook asks all her guests at the end of a Rights for Women episode is what is at the heart of your writing? Gosh.
Casey: Women are at the heart of what I write. I write for women and friendship, which I think comes through in mine and yours.
Casey: Women friendships are compelling for readers because. We all have friendships multiple friendships, and also self-love for me and self-acceptance because I think all women could do with a little bit more of that. We can never have too much. And you can do amazing things when you approach it from a place of high self love and self-worth, and I think that is a message that I would love.
Casey: For people to take away that you can do anything. You are magical.
Anne: Absolutely. I agree. I think, friendships between women, the support systems that we cultivate, I think they're worthy of elevation. They're worthy of having the spotlight put on them. For me, I think it's also.
Anne: The depth of our interior lives. So often, I'll juxtapose the day to day, the domestic, the surface of what you might see when you look at a wife and mother. Juxtapose that with the sort of rich interior existence as well. And there's always challenges that our protagonists are grappling with, but they're not visible from the surface.
Anne: And it's that meme of, the swan gr gliding gracefully across the pond. All the while the feet are going like mad under the surface of the water. So I think that's what I try to bring to the fore as well, which is, women as complex beings. Because I think at a certain point.
Anne: In a culture that prizes, youth and beauty, having those characters that could be you or me, having them thrust into extraordinary circumstances and, navigated, perhaps not always elegantly, ultimately to arrive at that metamorphosis. That self-actualization, I think that makes for really interesting reading and I certainly find it to be really interesting writing as well.
Casey: Absolutely. Women have a lot going on mental load. It's a buzzword, but it's real. I know my husband's not laying awake at 3:00 AM worrying about, book week or whatever, do enough stuff to put in the.
Casey: It is not a disservice to shout about that stuff. It is only gonna make it better for us. And coming to being almost 40, I think you start to shed a little bit of what people think or worrying about all that stuff that maybe matters a little bit less, and that is freeing. And maybe for younger readers that can give hope that.
Casey: You'll get to a point where you can just be your authentic self. And if people don't like that's okay, because you are not going to be everything to everyone, certainly not all the time. And nor should we be expected to be. Absolutely.
Anne: Casey Knott, it has been delightful chatting with you.
Anne: Thank you so much for your time.
Casey: Thank you. It's always just so delightful to talk to you. We could go on forever.