Going Deeper with Point of View with Lisa Hall-Wilson
Going Deeper: Writing in Deep POV with Lisa Hall-Wilson
Lisa: [00:00:00] But what deep point of view is really about is removing that narrator voice it's about removing the psychic distance between the character and the reader. So the reader feels like they're immersed in the story as it's happening
Pamela: [00:00:13] Welcome to Writes4Women a podcast all about celebrating women's voices and supporting women writers. I'm Pamela Cook women's fiction author writing teacher, mentor, and podcaster. Each week on the Convo Couch, I'll be chatting to a wide range of women writers focusing on the heart, craft and business of writing, along with a new release feature author each month. You can listen to the episodes on any of the major podcasting platforms or directly from the Writes4Women website, where you'll also find the transcript of each chat and the extensive Writes4Women backlist.
On a personal writing note my current release is All We Dream. If you'd like to know more about it or any of my books, you can check out my website at pamelacook.com.au for more information.
Before beginning today's chat I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to the Dharawal people, the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging.
And a quick reminder that there could be strong language and adult concepts discussed in this podcast. So please be aware of this if you have children around.
Now Let's relax on the Convo Couch and chat to this week's guest.
Welcome to the May Craft of Writing episode on Writes4Women today's guest on the convo couch is Lisa Hall Wilson. Lisa is an award-winning author and mentor fascinated by monsters in the dark and the supernatural. She blends those elements into her stories, along with her passion for history, fantasy romance and faith. Lisa's fiction grew from a need to ask more questions and is socially acceptable to understand the why and how and who. And the so-what and the so-that. Lisa runs fabulous online classes on writing in deep point of view, which is where I first came across her a few years back. I really enjoy reading books where I'm deeply embedded in the main characters point of view. And I wanted to write them too. So I took a couple of Lisa's courses, which I found absolutely invaluable.
She's an amazing and generous mentor. And I have her to thank for the deep level of point of view I managed to achieve in my 2019 novel Cross My Heart. There's so much I want to chat to about Lisa today. I'm hoping that we can get through it all in the time that we have.
Lisa, welcome to theWrites4Women Convo Couch.
Lisa: [00:02:43] Thank you for having me.
Pamela: [00:02:44] Yeah. It's great to be chatting to you. You're all the way over there in Toronto and we're I'm in Sydney, so it's pretty amazing. We've got a pretty clear line at the moment. So hopefully it stays that way.
Lisa: [00:02:55] Yeah. I'm actually in London, Ontario, which is about two hours from Toronto. Okay. Pretty close.
Pamela: [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. And you're in spring and we're starting to get into the chill of autumn now. So yes. Okay. Well, I wanted to start with a question Lisa, about how you actually managed to get into being so passionate, I guess, and such an expert as you've become on writing deep point of view.
So how did your interest in, in writing that way? Really develop.
Lisa: [00:03:26] Gosh, I'm an expert on D point of view.
Well, I guess I began to really begin reading stories. Probably it was more closer to, you know, limited third person back in the early two thousands, but I was seeing these forays into what seemed like more intense and certainly more emotionally gripping stories. And I really wanted to learn how to do that.
And I'm not even sure deep point of view had a name at that point. It was just kind of seen as an offshoot of limited third person. And so as the years went on and the more I tried to look into it, it began to have its own presence and its own style. And I guess, you know, fast forward a few years to like 2012 or so, and, it really had become its own thing distinct from limited third person.
Pamela: [00:04:17] Yeah. Well, I have had many conversations with people about this with people saying, well, what's the difference between, you know, limited third person and deep point of view. So could you talk a little bit about that?
Lisa: [00:04:28] Sure. Well, limited third person still uses the writer narrator voice to tell a story it's simply limiting. The fact that you're only telling a story about one character at a time. You're only hearing one character's thoughts at a time, but it's still the writer telling this story. Whereas in Deep point of view, you want to remove that writer or narrator voice entirely. And so everything the characters does or says or thinks or moves it all comes from within the character without that summarizing or. You know, skimming details, things that we use with a narrator or writer voice to keep the story moving.
Pamela: [00:05:10] Hmm. So what would you say would be some of the features, I guess, of writing in deep point of view, what are the things that people need to be aware of?
Lisa: [00:05:19] Huh? Well, if you read any of the blogs out there that try and summarize deep point of view in a single blog post, they'll tell you it's all about removing dialogue tags and using beets, which a lot of people do unlimited third person as well. And it's all about removing filter and emotion words. So instead of saying, he was in love, you had described what love is and so, or how it feels. And those are all really important parts of deep point of view. But what deep point of view is really about is removing that narrator voice it's about removing the psychic distance between the character and the reader so the reader feels like they're immersed in the story as it's happening. Imagine, you know, strapping a GoPro to your character and moving through a whole story with that perspective or that first person shooter style of telling a story.
Pamela: [00:06:08] Yeah, that's a really good way to explain it actually, the whole GoPro thing. I like that. Do you think that it's connected in any way or more related to some genres than others writing in deep point of view? Or do you feel it's something that's across the spectrum?
Lisa: [00:06:21] I, yeah, I think it's certainly more popular in some genres to write entirely in deep point of view. So I see it in any kind of romance genre in particular, they really kind of dive deep into the deep point of view because it's all about the emotional experience, right? I mean, that's, that's what romance is about, but I also see it being used in fantasy and in suspense and you know, a lot of different genres, but they 'll be probably using it in a more limited way. So instead of using it for the entire story, they will save a deep point of view for those moments that are key scenes, where they need like that emotional gut punch for a reader where they really want to draw them in close and kind of knock them with the emotion and a story.
Mm Hmm.
Pamela: [00:07:08] And do you think it's easier Lisa, to do it in either first or third person to actually capture that deep point of view? I guess logically you might think well, first person, that is the character telling the story so then it has to be deep point of view. Is that necessarily the case?
Lisa: [00:07:25] No. And I think people get hung up on that first or third person question. And I think they're asking the wrong question. First or third person is more personal style, personal choice. It's more of a genre. It has very little to do with deep point of view. You can still use the writer or narrator voice, even within first person. You can still stay shallow without limited third person feel even in first person. So it's more about how deep into the emotions do you want you to go? What serves the story best? And I think a lot of people get hung up with deep point of view that they need to follow all the rules. Right. If I learned the rules, then this tool work for me.
And the problem is of course finding all the rules because it's a lot more complicated than people realize, but also it's a set of tools right? And so you're an artist. You use the tools to create the effect you want to have in your story. What serves your story? You don't need to be ruled by a set of guidelines or a template. There's, there's still not any guarantee for success, not even with deep point of view.
Pamela: [00:08:33] Yeah, for sure. You were saying by 2012, you know, when you started to really delve into it, that there was a lot more. Stories are written in deep point of view. Do you feel since then it's become even more popular in terms of a writing style?
Lisa: [00:08:47] Absolutely. Yeah. I think virtually every writer who joins my blog or, you know, joins my Facebook group, who talks about, you know, when you ask them, why do you want to learn D point of view? , 75, 80% are saying, I spoke to an agent or I spoke to an editor who said I should rewrite. in deep point of view, I had a beta reader or a critique partner say, you know, they couldn't get into this story. I should try writing in deep point of view. So I think readers are really looking for that immersive emotional journey, more so than simply being entertained now.
Pamela: [00:09:23] True. And, and I guess that comes too from maybe watching more things, I'm just thinking, as we're talking about it yeah, Netflix is available. People are, are really immersing themselves into story in movie form. So do you think that's had an influence too on that development in, in writing?
Lisa: [00:09:40] Yeah, absolutely. I, I also like to think that people are expecting more from writers. Maybe that's just my own personal hope. I don't know. I'm personally drawn to stories that are going to do more than just entertain me. Right? I want to be a part of this story. I want to have a character who I can fall in love with and who will kind of be a best friend while I'm reading this book, that kind of character I'm going to want to revisit over and over again, either rereading the same novel or looking for the next one in this series. It's a kind of emotional pull right? That just, it just grabs you by the throat and won't let you go. Those are the kind of stories that I want to spend four or five days reading. Great. Staying up late to read. Those are the stories I'm looking for. Yeah, it
Pamela: [00:10:24] It does have that page turning type feel about it doesn't it? Cause you just, as you say, you are quite immersed. So having said that, you know, we don't have to follow all the rules could you maybe outline for people listening what would be the basic things that you should do? If you want to write in deep point of view?
Lisa: [00:10:42] You want to write entirely indeed point of view. For sure you're going to work on your dialogue tags. You're going to upgrade those to beats and then challenge yourself to upgrade them from action beats to complex beats.
And there's, you know, there's lots of ways to Google that but if you're looking for a next step, that would be one place to go. Certainly look for any way, any place where you've mentioned an emotion, word, love, hate anger, envy, and dive into the why. I look for any filter words made, feel, felt wanted, and thinking words, like thought decided, imagined these are all gonna add psychic distance, right? It's that's where the writer is stepping in to tell the story rather than the reader right next to the character, living out the story. But then after that, I think the key, and I don't see a lot of blogs mentioned this, but really the key is to answer the why.
This has become such a huge part of what I teach about deep point of view is to get really curious about the why. Why does your character feel like this? Why are they thinking this? Why are they doing that? Why are they making this a priority? If you can really dive deep. And I say, get curious intentionally, because we want to try and mandate things. And it doesn't matter if you're a planner or a plotter, but - or pantser. But no, I think getting curious as to why is this, what is this character's motivation, right? If we were actors, what's their motivation and trying to understand that, because I mean, you can be angry about so many things, but if you want your reader to care, they have to know why the character's angry and what the consequences are.
What's at stake? And we think we're doing all this and yet, you know, we really aren't, especially if we're used to writing in limited third person. It's a lot deeper and more intimate is the word I'm looking for.
Pamela: [00:12:37] Hmm. Hmm. So just to go back Lisa to that first point that you made. You know, you said, remove your dialogue tags, replace them with a beat and then look for a more complicated sort of beat in terms of the action.
Lisa: [00:12:50] Yeah. So the dialogue tags, most of the time, we're told to say, he said, she said on occasion you might see the thought tag, right? He thought/ she thought in internal dialogue, but what you want to do instead is immerse the reader in the scene. What else is going on? Do more with that sentence, then just attribute dialogue.
Pamela: [00:13:14] So all your word choice and everything of course comes into that. So we've talked about some of those things that people should do. Are there any things that you definitely shouldn't do if you want to write in deep point of view?
Lisa: [00:13:28] Well, if you want to write into point of view, I think the things you resist is to is to really resist that writer, voice. That narrator voice, right? Where you're talking to the reader. And I see that happen a lot in internal dialogue, you know, where they talk to the reader and try and disguise it through the character's thinking, which is acceptable in limited third person. But in deep point of view ends up being author intrusion.
There's a lot of summarizing and reporting that happens in limited third person that in deep point of view comes across as author intrusion. So I start looking for anywhere where it feels like the writer is talking to the reader. Look for those spots in your manuscript, where, you know, you have to pause and you think who is, who is the character talking to here?
If the character is talking to the reader, you know, you're breaking the fourth wall. If it's the writer talking to the reader, then that's author intrusion, and you'd be surprised at how easily that slips in, particularly if you're familiar or you're more accustomed to writing in, in limited third person. Or even I see a lot of people writing objective third person, and don't even know it.
Pamela: [00:14:45] So could you explain what that is for people that might not know what it is? .
Lisa: [00:14:49] So objective third person isn't limited to just one person. The reader can, or the writer sorry can tell a story about a number of characters, but they're less concerned with the emotions. They're less concerned with the character's thoughts.
And so it's more just a reporting. It's more of like an oral story tradition is kind of how I think of it. Yeah. And so it's not wrong, but it's certainly not limited third person and it's definitely not deep point of view.
Pamela: [00:15:19] . Yeah. I've actually recently, read a book in that style and you can really see the difference.
So what about Lisa if you want to Mark in multiple points of view, it's still possible to do that in deep point of view, isn't it?
Lisa: [00:15:32] Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, certainly anyone writing romance, most of the time, they're going to want the male and the female protagonist point of view. So that's entirely possible. Where it gets tricky is when you start adding four or five points of view, right? When you're looking at some of the big fantasy stories and Epic fantasy. And so what I see a lot of writers do is they will limit the deep point of view to one or two characters and write in limited third, for some of the others that don't carry the story and they might slip in and out of deep point of view, depending on who is carrying the story at any one point.
That's what I love about deep point of view is its flexibility. You can slip in and out of deep point of view so easily, and the readers for the most part, aren't always aware of this switch if you get good at it. And so you can really pull the reader in deep when you need to, and then give them a bit of time to break, to breathe as well.
I think that's kind of the biggest complaint I hear about deep point of view actually, is that it's too intense. Any readers who struggle with any kind of high tense storylines? You know I don't want to pick on anybody. I do see it quite a lot among cozy readers where they don't like, you know, that really intense suspense, storyline. They like that kind of Agatha Christie storyline. And so they really struggle with deep point of view, both writing it and reading it. And I think mystery writers especially struggle with D point of view because they feel it's too restrictive.
Pamela: [00:16:58] So as an example, you're writing from one, you know, you've got one protagonist, you're telling the story through that character's perspective...when might be times in the story, when you might want to pull back from deep point of view?
Lisa: [00:17:11] Well, deep point of view has a tendency to tie an anchor to the pace of your story. I mean, most people, if they've done been writing for a while, they know it writing on the nose is and they know you know, navel gazing and that kind of thing, right, where they start kind of this soliloquy inside their own heads about things that are going on. I mean, deep point of view does lend itself to writing on the nose, but you need to be really intentional with when that happens. So the more steps you put in an action, you know: Sarah walks to the door, the floor creaks under her feet. She turns the door knob, the cold brass chills, her fingers, right? The reader's like, man, there's gotta be something really important behind that door.
Pamela: [00:17:54] Yeah.
Lisa: [00:17:55] But if there's nothing there, she can just open the door. And so that's where the point of view can really trip you up. It can cause the reader to constantly lean in for no reason and then they, they lose trust. So be really strategic about it. Sometimes your character just needs to move from point A to point B, right? They just need to go to work or they just need to get up. And the kind of blow by blow account that a lot of people feel as necessary in deep point of view. It can really just kill the pace of your novel if it's not used strategically.
Pamela: [00:18:29] Hmm. Yeah. I really liked that example about the door. That's great. That explains things very clearly. You do very in-depth critiques of people who do your courses and things and you, you know, they're on video. So if you're part of your masterclass group or part of your deep dive club, on Facebook, you get to see these videos, which is fantastic because you're actually analyzing as you go. And one of the things that you often talk about is in deep point of view, that the main character won't be keeping any secrets from the reader. Can you talk a little bit about that idea?
Lisa: [00:19:01] Sure. So, so with deep point of view, we want the reader completely immersed in the character's perspective. So the reader knows everything the character knows. If they learn something, if they Intuit something, if they suspect, or, you know, you have all of their senses at play, as well as their personal history and all of their prejudices and their morals. And I mean, all of that, right? The problem comes in then with, when you want to hold back some information from the reader to try and build up suspense, because there's no room for that in deep point of view.
And I think as I was saying, I think mystery writers in particular really struggle with that because a lot of there's quite a, quite a few subs you're on yours in particular, that really rely on that aspect of the reader. Not knowing everything that's going on, even if the main character does. And I think it's unfair to say that deep point of view doesn't work for those genres. I think it absolutely does, but you just can't use it to keep secrets from the reader. Have the character learn with the reade, learn as the character does. Have the character be surprised by things they don't see coming. Right? Let the reader experience it as the character does instead of having this all-knowing character move into a scene and the reader going, 'Oh, that's what was going on'.
There are definitely ways around it. It, it is probably a little more work.
Pamela: [00:20:32] Definitely. So having said that you don't want to keep secrets from the reader and, you know, you want the reader to experience things. And I'm thinking of that, you know, great Atticus Finch quote that he says to Scout of course, about, you know, getting into, into a person's skin.
And I guess that's what you're really trying to do to the fullest extent, you know, when you're writing in deep point of view. But how would you suggest people, i f there are bits of information, they do want to hold back for reasons of tension and suspense, how would you suggest people do that in deep point of view? I mean, not necessarily to keep secrets, but perhaps not want to reveal things upfront to the reader?
Lisa: [00:21:10] Well, I think there are legitimately times when, you know, when we don't think of things. When something comes to mind that we hadn't thought of in a long time or even a case where we're avoiding thinking about something. I think those are all very legitimate. The key though, is that they really can't think of these things and maybe they're surprised by an old memory or whatever. Because then the reader gets to be surprised or have this kind of feeling of new revelation with the character.
The other option of course, is to move in and out of points of view, right? So you have a different character take over the story so that, you know, when the action happens, the reader can still be surprised because the one telling the story really doesn't know. I've seen lots of different ways around it. The key though, is that whatever the character experiences or feels, that's what the reader is a part of. The character having knowledge about something and then trying to write it so that the reader is surprised about it. That's really, really hard to do in deep point of view unless it's done intentionally.
Pamela: [00:22:16] Mm Hmm. Cause I know I've done this myself, Lisa, and you've helped me with this in one of my books in particular, but what would you say for people writing the character who might be suffering from some sort of trauma or PTSD and how deep point of view works in that situation?
Lisa: [00:22:34] I actually write quite a lot about that don't I? T hat's such a big topic. I think the key is to really understand how trauma works on the brain and how it affects your thinking and how you make decisions. Because there's lots of trauma that actually rewires your brain. It changes how you think, and it can hijack all your emotions and even your body, your sensations. So just do a lot of research for sure. And if you can, my personal standard is to try and talk to someone who has that affliction, someone who struggles with that, someone who's been through something similar. And I can already hear the objections: but I don't know anyone. I think honestly, forums are the thing to do. They have open forums and, and why people post such personal details on them and ask for advice I'm not sure, but they do! And so I just go in and lurk. I have researched some really crazy stuff on forums. Well, one I did recently was male rape, I don't know anybody who has had that experience, but I can go onto those forums and they go into a lot of detail into how it felt, not necessarily the visceral in the moment sensations, but the consequences, the emotional consequences. How it changed their thinking and day to day, how it affects them.
My personal pet peeve is when readers or writers give characters these traumatic backgrounds and post-traumatic stress disorder in particular, and then have no emotional consequences other than inconvenient memories. I have no patience for that personally, as a reader. Because it's so debilitating, it's honestly a disservice to try and portray it that way.
Pamela: [00:24:22] No, that's great advice about the forums too. And, and of course, Google is our friend always, so we can always get online and once you start, there's often just a rabbit hole isn't there?
Lisa: [00:24:34] And I actually found quite a few books where psychologists or psychiatrists will share anonymized accounts from their own practice. And I found those actually quite helpful as well.
Pamela: [00:24:44] Hmm. That's a great tip. And so lots of things have come up about showing emotions. It's really important in deep point of view to focus on the showing I think rather than the telling. And another thing that often comes up, I've noticed, when I'm working on students' work as well the order of reactions and how that can really put a spanner in the works in terms of pulling the reader out of the story. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of, of those I guess it's those MRU those motivation reaction units and how that works in the writing for deep point of view as well?
Lisa: [00:25:17] Yeah. Well, I think MRU should be important for writing in limited third person as well, but it's the idea of putting the horse in front of the cart. I see a lot of people who write the reaction and then write what they're reacting to. And so the problem with that in deep point of view, of course, is that out of order jerks the reader out of that immersive experience you're trying to create.
And the reader, the first few times is probably going to skim over: Oh, I know what they meant. Right, but it still mentally pulls him out of this story for just that few seconds. And then they'll begin to kind of pick up on it. And the more frequently it happens, the more they're jerked out of this story.
I have flagged this problem, five, six times in a chapter for quite a lot of my students when they're first learning this. And so every action has a reaction and that's how you have to write it. Every reaction has a thought, then action; action, then reaction. That's how it goes.
Pamela: [00:26:16] Yeah. So that, that's a really good tip for people that might not realize that. I think in particular beginner writers don't sort of click with that style. But the other thing of course is, and we have talked a little bit about this, but setting can make a lot of impact when you're it through deep point of view. So how can you use setting to sort of enhance deep point of view do you think?
Lisa: [00:26:35] Oh, one quick point to add to the last question is the problem with having things happen. So things are written as this has happened and while that was happening and I would start flagging every instance of while, and as in your manuscript, and really be objective, is this actually happening simultaneously. But in terms of setting, for sure, I like to say writers need to feel their way through the setting. Everything the character takes in, everything they see and they sense and they intuit and all of it. That's all about how does the character feel about it right now?
Resist the temptation to catalog everything in a room. I like to use the example of, you know a woman walks into the office of her male coworker and she shuts the door and she steps out of her high heels and she starts unbuttoning her blouse. Do you need to know what kind of desk is in the room? Do you need to know if the floor is carpeted or not? I think what's important is if there's a file on the desk that she's in there to really get that, that's why she's there. That's for sure an important detail, right? Why she's there, it helps you feel your way through this setting.
Readers get confused about what's important when you start cataloging everything. What's important right now? What would the character realistically notice right now? I think too often we put all this work into creating a setting and we want to make sure the reader knows we did all this research. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I read like readers do 80% of the work with description. They create this whole setting in their head and we really just need to give them the bare minimum and let them do the extra work because that's what makes it personal to them.
That's part of the emotional connection we're trying to create.
Yeah, you want the reader to be actively engaged, don't you? Like you say, and to sort of tell part of the story themselves almost. And of course, Lisa you've written a book about deep point of view and it's called, which I think is a fantastic title and it just sums up everything we've been talking about, which is Method Acting for Writers.
Thank you. Well, I published it you know, two or three years ago now. And it was just a collection of the lessons from my five week course. Although I don't think it was even five weeks at the time I published that it's expanded quite a bit now and I'm actually working on a rewrite to try and update it. Because I really wanted to give people an opportunity to learn about deep point of view. There was nothing really out there that covered deep point of view, very comprehensively. It didn't show you how all these pieces fit together or what effect these tools were trying to create so you could strategically use them.
That was kind of what I wanted to equip people with because I'd spent so much time trying to find all those one piece at a time here and there. So the rewrite will be an updated version, a collection of all the blog posts and the course content you know, at a price point that's a lot more affordable than if you wanted the personalized feedback that you would get in the course.
Pamela: [00:29:40] Well, could you tell people a little bit about your courses and how you run them and where they can find them?
Lisa: [00:29:45] Yeah. Well, I created a course that I was looking for and couldn't find to be honest. I found that when I went to writers conferences, I learned the most at those intensives where you got to write and then come back the next day and get feedback. And so my course, there's 25 plus lessons now. Every time I run it, I add another one or two. Which is great for alumni, right?
Pamela: [00:30:07] Yep. I can attest to that.
Lisa: [00:30:12] But most lessons give you an opportunity for feedback. I've broken it all down into very bite sized pieces so that you can tackle one smart, small bit at a time and get feedback on that.
So, if you've got it or not, and usually get a next step with the feedback. So you get, 25 plus opportunities to share homework from your own WIP but then in addition every week you also get to send in between three and 10 pages for the five weeks So that's what 15 to 50 pages or so – you can have me read and get personalized feedback. And then every week I also do live critiques in the class on Facebook groups. So you can see me go over it and my live critiques are always more in depth because I'm too lazy to write everything out.
Pamela: [00:30:58] To listen to the feedback you're giving on other people's work I find just as effective almost as getting it on your own work.
Lisa: [00:31:05] Yeah A lot of people say they learned as much from reading the feedback others get as they did from the feedback I got on their own.
Pamela: [00:31:12] It must be busy, Lisa.
Lisa: [00:31:16] Well, I've honestly had to hire a coach because I couldn't keep up, but up until the last fall I was doing it all on my own and I really love it. I love being able to help people and to kind of help them cast a vision. I think the problem people have with deep point of view is that they don't understand the potential it unlocks, they don't understand how much richer and how much more intimate their stories can be if they can figure out how to use these tools, the best way to serve their story and serve their voice. Then once you kind of unlock that potential you know, I like to say, once you go deep, you never go back.
Pamela: [00:31:51] Yeah yeah. Lisa people often say, well, what is a book that's written in deep point of view? People are probably reading them and not even realizing to be honest, a lot of the time, but could you think of some books that are written pretty much entirely in deep point of view, including your own?!
Lisa: [00:32:06] Yeah. So my novel, The Last Years is written entirely in deep point of view.I know K. M. Weiland's The Dream Lander it's written entirely in deep point of view. There's quite a few that are written almost entirely in deep point of view. I think you have to allow a little room for cheating here and there because deep point of view is really quite intense and can bog down your story.
So I really loved your book Cross My Heart. I know The Brass Queen by Elizabeth Chatsworth. That's a fantastic book. I'm not a big fan of steam punk but I really loved that book. Again, she is another one of my students.
Pamela: [00:32:38] That's a few great examples. So, and I can put those in the show notes for people too. But of course people can find out more information about you and about the course at your website and your blog.
Lisa: [00:32:48] Yeah. I'm actually more active on Facebook, to be honest. I do a lot more like microblogging on Facebook than I do on my actual blog. So if you were to search for the group, "Going deeper with Emotions in Fiction", that's kind of where I hang out quite a lot of my teaching. I also have my blog at lisahallwilson.com But I have recurring guest posts, lots at Writers in the Storm and Writers Helping Writers. So, and I think a lot of people find me through Pinterest, to be honest.
Pamela: [00:33:19] Yeah, it's something I've been meaning to look into actually, in terms of, connecting with other writers and connecting with readers through Pinterest.
Lisa: [00:33:26] Yeah. I get at least 50 or more than that percent of the hits on my blog come directly from Pinterest.
Pamela: [00:33:32] Wow okay. Well, that's, that's good advice for people too. And I'll be finding you on Pinterest. Lisa. I haven't been on it very much, but I'll I'll look for your stuff on Pinterest as well.
Lisa: [00:33:43] Yeah. I just started a new series on Pinterest and I need to upload a few more pins about questions to help you go deeper. People are always asking me, how do I go deeper? Where do you come up with these questions on how to help me go deeper? And so I started posting them on Pinterest
Pamela: [00:33:57] Fantastic . I'll look for that. And I'll put that in the show notes as well. We could talk on and on and on Lisa about this, obviously, but I think, we've covered quite a bit for the time we've been chatting. And I think that's a really great starting point for people who want to find out more about deep point of view. And as you say, it's something that you really have to, I think, work out over a period of time.
Lisa: [00:34:17] Yeah, I think I found that because I give alumni, lifetime membership into the class I find quite a lot of them will retake the course two or three times. They'll come back with a new book. – let me try it again with this one and try and go a little bit deeper each time. Give yourself that freedom for sure. You don't need to nail deep point of view your first time out of the gate. It can be something you work on and go a little bit deeper with each one until you feel like this is my sweet spot here. It's right here. Yeah Keep at it.
Pamela: [00:34:45] Well, thank you so much. It's been really great chatting and I've picked up a few more tips as well, which is always wonderful. I will put those things in the show notes and people can definitely find you on Facebook and at your website. So thank you, Lisa. And I know you've got a course about to start, haven't you?
Lisa: [00:35:00] Yes I've got one starting May 3rd but it does run three or four times a year So it opened again in the fall.
Pamela: [00:35:06] Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much.
Lisa: [00:35:09] Thank you.