Joanna Penn, Your Author Business Plan

Joanna Penn, Your Author Business Plan

(Season 2, Episode 3)

Pam: [00:00:00] Welcome to Writes4Women, a podcast all about celebrating women's voices and supporting women writers. I'm Pamela Cook, women's fiction author writing, teacher, mentor, and podcaster Each week on the Convo Couch, I'll be chatting to a wide range of women writers, focusing on the heart, craft and business of writing, along with a New Release Feature Author each month. You can listen to the episodes on any of the major podcasting platforms or directly from the Writes4Women website, where you'll also find the transcript of each chat and the extensive Writes4Women backlist.

On a personal writing note, my current release is All We Dream. You can check out my website at pamelacook.com.au

Before beginning today's chat. I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to the Dharawal people, the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia, and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging.

And a quick reminder that there could be strong language and adult concepts discussed in this podcast, so please be aware of this, if you have children around.

Now let's relax on the couch and chat to this week's guest.

 [00:01:25] I'm hugely excited to welcome today's guest to the podcast. Joanna Penn is an award nominated New York times and USA today best-selling thriller author under the name J. F. Penn. She also writes nonfiction for authors and is widely known for her brilliant podcast, The Creative Penn, which has been downloaded over 4 million times in 220 countries. Joanna has written over 30 titles and sold more than 600,000 books in 149 countries and six languages. She's an indie author, an international professional speaker and an award-winning creative entrepreneur. She's based in bath, England and lived in Australia and New Zealand for 11 years, which I'm going to chat to her briefly about.  She's also turned her love of travel into a newish podcast called Books and Travel and spent 13 years as a business IT consultant in large corporates across the globe before becoming a full-time author entrepreneur in September, 2011. She has a new book out called Your Author Business Plan, which is mainly what I'm going to be talking to her about today.

[I was a huge fan of The Creative Penn podcast, even before I published my own first indie book. So, it's an absolute pleasure to be able to welcome Joanna to the podcast today.

Jo, welcome to the Writes4Women Convo Couch.

Joanna: [00:02:45]  Aw, thanks so much, Pamela. It's exciting to be here. And yeah, I always hear my introduction and I'm like 'really seriously?'. It's not me! But of course,  I was living back in Brisbane, back in the day before I had any books at all.  So it's kind of crazy. It's lovely to be talking to you over in Australia.

Pam: [00:03:02] It is. It's great. And it's evening here and of course, quite early in the day over there for you in the UK, and I'm pretty sure you're still in lockdown over there. Is that right?

Joanna: [00:03:12]  Yes, lockdown three, which you never know, it could be our last lockdown, but I think now  we're quite, we know how to do it.

And you know, desperate to get out of here, obviously, but  it's fine. And me and my husband work from home anyway and have done for years. So, it doesn't make too much difference to our daily life.

Pam: [00:03:32] I suppose it puts a dent in your travel plans.

Joanna: [00:03:36] That is the thing , that is the big thing, but it's funny.

[00:03:40] We were talking, because my husband's a New Zealander and so of course we  get his mum phoning up and I think the news over there makes it look like it's the apocalypse over here, like bodies lying in the street but that's just the news and it's the media. I mean, from our perspective, we wear masks in shops when they're open, but they're not open right now.

[But I would say. It's sensationalized too, in many ways, which is what the news does. But in terms of our daily life you know, we go for walks, we go to the supermarket and obviously there's some terrible things happening, but it's not like everyone in their daily life is having a awful time.

Pam: [00:04:17] Yeah, you're right. It is the sort of news we're getting here. And like you say, of course it isn't great, but you're still smiling and relatively normally :).

Joanna: [00:04:28] Yeah. And I think with the vaccine roll out now my mum should be getting it soon. I mean, I'm a very happy, upbeat, positive person anyway. So, I've always got hope for the future. And what I would say is, again, the terrible death toll around the world, but the advances in medical technology have been incredible. So, what we could find is that this period. wIll enable a lot of breakthroughs that will help all of us in the future. And so I try and stay on that side, the silver lining in the pandemic. Personally, it's been a very creative time for me. And I think for many writers, once you get over the initial, 'Oh my goodness, the world is going to end', once you get over that phase, which we kind of got over last March- April ... I feel like we have to look at the silver lining, and this comes back to our conversation today: what is important to do with your life? Because we've all come face to face with our mortality in such a dramatic way that we're now feeling like, do I really want to do that? Or for people who maybe haven't written their first book yet, now's a really good time because, you know, life is short. I don't know when it's going to end and what do I want to actually achieve with my life? What body of work can I create that I'm proud of? And for those of us over here, who've kind of been in this a lot longer, I feel that very strongly ' I must only do the things that are really important now'.

Pam: [00:05:57] I love that glass completely full approach. Fantastic.

[Joanna: [00:06:02] Obviously with acknowledging that there's a lot of pain and suffering, but I try to  tay upbeat. Otherwise it would be very depressing.

Pam: [00:06:08] True. It's a great attitude. So, Jo, for those who are listening, who might not be familiar with your work, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your writing related work? And even tell us about your time in Australia? That would be great.

Joanna: [00:06:23] Sure. Well, I'll start with Australia. I have a degree in theology, which is one of those completely pointless degrees, and then I went into it consulting. So, I ended up implementing Accounts Payable in various companies around the world. And in 2005, I found myself in Brisbane, Australia working with a very large mining company.  You know, big company. And so I was there and I'd been doing this job for years. I'd resigned several times. Over the years, I started a scuba diving business in Northlands in New Zealand. I tried property investing. We had a doo-wop in Ipswich, in Queensland and you know, none of these things stuck for me.

[00:07:02] I was like, do you know what?  I just don't want to do those things. And I just didn't know what to do with my life. So this was 2005, 2006. And we were living in Ipswich, as I said, and I was like, 'Do you know what? I'm just going to figure out what I need to do with my life. I'm just miserable in my job'. They were paying me really well as a contractor, but I was crying at work, you know, it was just miserable. And so I started to listen to a lot of self-help. We read a lot of books and I was like, do you know what, I'm going to write a book about career change, and that will help me figure out what I'm going to do with my life.

[00:07:37] And so I did write that book and then  I looked at the publishing industry in Australia. This was 2006. And I was like, do you know what? I don't want to do that. Because it's going to take years for this book to come out and I'm not willing to wait that long.

[00:07:51] So I self-published that first book in 2008, beginning of 2008. And I discovered that you had to learn about marketing in order to actually sell some books. So,  I got on A Current Affair. And I got into lots of Australian papers and things. It was around the time when they had that dream job going on the Island .

Pam: [00:08:12] Oh, I remember.

Joanna: [00:08:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I was on TV talking about, 'if you don't get that dream job, you can get a different dream job'. And so, I had all this traditional media and I literally sold a hundred books, which was hilarious. I just decided to investigate how you could use the internet to sell books.

And I listened to some other Australians: Yaro Starak  who now is at yaro.blog, who was also in Brisbane originally, and Darren Rouse, Pro-blogger, he's in Melbourne. So, I was like, wow, these guys are making money on the internet blogging, writing, basically.  I'm going to try that too. So I started my blog, The Creative Penn, started a podcast and then at that point, and I'm kind of giving a bit of context, cause I know a lot of people are just starting out,  I had this book, but I also joined National Speakers Association in Brisbane. I was speaking, and started doing workshops at Brisbane library.

My first self publishing workshops were at Brisbane Library all those years ago. And eventually the Queensland Library as well. And this was back in the day before the international kindle took off in Australia, before print on demand was a thing, before digital audio.

[00:09:29] So it was very hard back then to make any money with your books. But I learned all that stuff and then in 2010, I did Year of the Novel at Queensland Library. And  I know you've taught at that, so that really helped me write my first novel.  I published my first novel in 2011 and essentially what I did was designed this sort of portfolio career so I could leave my job. And I left my job in September, 2011, but I took a massive pay cut. We downsized, we sold our house and our investment property. We completely got rid of our debt. We moved to a rental in Indra Pilley at the time. And eventually moved back to the UK.

 I left my job knowing that we had to downsize and take this pay cut, but four years later, in 2015 I hit six figures. The following year multi-six figures. And now I make far more money than I ever did as an IT consultant. But the reason to sort of give you that perspective is that as we speak now in 2021 - this is like 15 years after I started writing that first book - but what I've done over 15 years literally is write. Most days  And publish. I put something into the world, whether that's a blog, post, a podcast, a book ... keep improving my craft, keep connecting with people. I have never had a moment of breakthrough success. It's just been year after year, but I love what I do.

[00:10:57] I absolutely love it. And I have never been weeping in the bathroom like back at the mining company. And so I think that's what's so brilliant now. Things are incredible and things are getting even better for authors.  Every single year, there are more opportunities to make money with our intellectual property assets, which is what we think of as books and the ways that we can reach people, reach readers, the ways that we can be creative. I mean, look at the podcasting industry. Since I started in 2008, 2009 it has just exploded. So yeah, I would just encourage people to think. Yes. I mean, I started long time ago, but literally there wasn't even the Kindle. 

Pam: [00:11:41] It's hard to imagine now, isn't it?  Like you say, so many changes have taken place in that time period since you started.

And,  so Jo, you are an indie author, you're loud and proud about that, you always have been. You've got the podcast, and you've just told us about all the different ways in which you've expanded your own career and your own portfolio of writing work. You have got a pretty firm finger on the pulse of the industry, and you do talk to a lot of people in the industry constantly as part of your work. What do you think have been the major changes in writing and publishing over that time? And maybe particularly in the last few years?

Joanna: [00:12:18] Oh goodness. It's been so many. I mean, probably the biggest one - and the pandemic has accelerated this - more than ever is the adoption of digital reading.

[00:12:27] It has been growing and growing. I mean, eBooks, obviously in the U S the UK, and to some extent, Australia and Canada, but Australia and Canada are very small markets.  When I was in Australia, there was absolutely no point in me trying to make a lot of money in Australia. What I should do is aim for America. So that was just a mindset shift that I had  very quickly in Australia.  It's 20 million people, 25 million, whereas what, 600 million in  America and in the UK 70 million so you have to think about the size of the market. But yeah, in terms of the way digital publishing has changed, and when I say digital we're not just talking about eBooks, so eBooks and print on demand - which if people don't know, you upload your print files, and then that one copy is printed and sent to the customer after they have ordered it. So, you don't have to do upfront costs. And then digital audio.

[00:13:18] So reading through your phone, and that's been transformative.  I'd say the technology has been around now for a decade, but the adoption of the technology is just speeding up, especially in other markets around the world.  For example, even since you downloaded my introduction I've now sold books in more countries

]Pam: [00:13:39] It's like wondering about that as I was reading it actually. :)

Joanna: [00:13:43] It's like 159 countries now where I have sold books...because they are available. And most of those are, read on the phone , or they are listened to on one of the apps. Library adoption of digital has just taken off in the last year because of course libraries haven't been open.

[00:14:00] So those libraries that were slow in adopting things like overdrive, which you can get in your libraries in Australia are now just starting to really take off. In countries that have not really adopted digital or, even ordering print online, has just obviously boomed because in the U S Europe, UK, a lot of countries around the world, physical book stores have been closed.

So people are now starting to buy more books online in every format. And that absolutely  means that it's a level playing field because the hardest thing to do for an author is to get their books into a book store. Even if you're traditionally published, it might only be in there for a month or a couple of months, and then it's gone again.

[00:14:42] So the beauty of, you know, having your books and having the rights to distribute your books - we can talk about that in a bit - is that you can reach people all over the world in these different formats. And so that's probably the biggest shift is the way technology has been adopted. I'd also say that the industry itself has started to change and a lot more authors are doing what I would call a hybrid approach, which is the word now. Some traditional deals and some independent deals. It used to be that it was either you were only traditionally publishing or you're only a self publishing, but now it's not like that at all.

I've licensed my rights in foreign languages. And I get paid in foreign currency.  So yeah, so you can do both now you know. A very famous example is The Martian by Andy Ware, which was self-published as an ebook, got an audio book deal and then went on to obviously get a traditional  deal, and doing incredibly well now with the movie, and his second book traditionally published. And then people like Brandon Sanderson, who's a huge fantasy author who recently, just in December or November did a Kickstarter and raised $6.7 million for a reprint of his first novel in a special edition. And he is traditionally published for most of his rights, but he retained the rights for special editions. So he did a limited edition leather-bound, you know, custom arts cover and raised 6.7 million.  And he's a very big name, a traditionally published author. So what I would say to people is, the world has just really changed in terms of the opportunities and the attitudes. You are an empowered creator and you get to choose the way your work reaches people. For example, you might choose to work with an Australian publisher for print publishing in Australia, New Zealand only. And then you might decide to self publish your own e-books globally because you can have them in 190 countries. You might decide to retain your audio, but rights and do those yourself, and you might keep print on demand for all other territories. And then you're a hybrid author making different streams of income from one book. And I think that's the smart author approach now. It's this kind of selective rights licensing and understanding that you do create intellectual property assets and that you are in charge of your career.

So it's this idea of empowerment around the creator, which we're just seeing more and more of in every sphere of art as people/ artists realize that it would be better for them to reach customers directly than just rely on these middlemen as such.

Pam: [00:17:38] And as you say, it's so important to have that control of your intellectual property.

That's been a really big thing that's impacted on me in listening to your podcast is, how much you are really keen about people hanging onto their intellectual property.

Joanna: [00:17:54] Well, it's not about hanging on to it. It's about understanding the value of it and then licensing where appropriate. But it's funny because  I definitely think that you need to just understand what you're signing. So for example, I talked to Rebecca Giblin, she's been on my podcast, from the one of the universities in Melbourne talking about this, the contracts that come out of the publishing industry might say something like 'worldwide English, or even worldwide, all languages, all formats existing now, and to be created for the life of copyright' and people are just signing this for a couple of thousand dollars. And what that means is you literally created the book and the copyright is you own it but you do not control that anymore for 70 years after you die. You've basically signed it away. You don't have any rights left in that book and people will go, 'Oh, well, the publisher would just do the best for me. Won't they?' No, because publishers actually work in territories so even if you sign that contract with an Australian publisher, are they going to publish your ebook in 190 countries?

[00:19:23] It's very unlikely that they will. Will your audio book be available in libraries in the UK? It's very unlikely because publishers work in these silos of territories, whereas we can publish globally in all formats.  I'm absolutely not saying that you shouldn't license your rights. You should you license your rights where it makes sense, but you just need to look at the contract.

So if an Australian publisher says, 'Ah, here's the contract with that clause for everything', you're like, okay, 'I'm not going to sign for all formats existing now and to be invented'. Yeah. That just isn't fair. For example, 'How about we do print only in Australia and New Zealand for English for the next 10 years?  There's an alternative clause'.  I think it's just about, and again, this comes down to empowerment and understanding your value ... I feel that so many authors are like, 'Ah, someone picked me, someone thinks my book is good, so yes, I'll sign'. But what you find - you know, this, because you've got six, six, seven books, something like that now - and so you and you'll meet authors. The most disappointed authors are the ones who signed these deals and then a couple of years later realize it's not all it's cracked up to be. So what I would say is yes, license your rights, but be very specific and understand that this is your career and you have to manage it.

Pam: [00:20:50] Yeah, for sure. Great advice. So Jo, you write both fiction and nonfiction. Do you think that publishing non-fiction books, in a particular area of expertise is helpful for a fiction author in terms of then selling their fiction books?

Joanna: [00:21:06] I don't know if it's helpful for selling your fiction books. It depends what it is. So for example, I am slowly working on a sort of travel memoir, which may or may not be interesting to readers of my fiction. What tends to happen with readers of fiction is they're pretty loyal to their genres. You know, a lot of fiction readers only read within specific genres. Even within my audience, I write an action adventure series, my Arcane series. And some of those readers will not even try my fantasy thrillers or my crime thrillers, because they're like, 'Nope, just not my thing'. And they'll email me and they'll be like, 'I'm sorry. When are you putting another one out in that series because I'm not interested in the other one.' This is, you know...you write women's fiction, right?

Pam: [00:21:50] Yeah

Joanna: [00:21:50] It's unlikely that your women's fiction readers will cross over to my crime thriller series. For example, like Desecration, they're not going to do that.

Pam: [00:21:59] It doesn't happen.

Joanna: [00:22:00] But if you write a book on ... have you've got a book on writing? I didn't know,

Pam: [00:22:04] Maybe in the back of my head. :)

Joanna: [00:22:06] Yeah. Right. Well, it's about time. Isn't it? Like me, with all my books for authors, we're more likely to share an audience in that way with helpful 'how to' books, which cross genres of fiction. But what I would say is the main reason to have non-fiction as an author is that it is much easier to market.

It's really easy to market. I mean, seriously, compared to fiction, which is almost impossible. And then it gives you a nice stream of income. You can turn it into multiple formats. So for example, I narrate my own audio books for non-fiction, which is much cheaper to do than hiring a narrator, which we do for fiction. You can have workbook editions. It sells really well in multiple additions. I find people buy the audio book and the hard back and the workbook. You know, people will send me photos and they've got multiple editions, which doesn't really happen with fiction either unless they're super, super- fans. And then also nonfiction doesn't really go up and down with what's in vogue in fiction right now. Everyone is watching Bridgerton on Netflix.

Pam: [00:23:21] Oh yeah. It's big out here too.

Joanna: [00:23:23] Yeah, it's huge. So the Regency romance authors are like, 'Whoa, this is a payday'. So they're all getting a massive bump of Regency romance off the back of Britain. This is the thing with nonfiction: it's almost like you get a constant stream of money because there are always people looking for specific topics, like 'how to write a book'. And you have a podcast for writers, so do I...there are always new listeners who are going to be interested in your book. A lot of fiction authors do non-fiction. Neil Gaiman, for example, put out a book on Norse mythology, the mythology underlying his fiction. Val McDermid, who's a crime writer here, wrote a book about forensics, you know, underlying her thrillers.

So what I would say to fiction authors is look, this is just another way to make a different stream of income. And I think it's absolutely fantastic. Now I obviously have two names. I do nonfiction under Joanna Penn and fiction under JF Penn, because I like to keep my audiences quite separate. And I found that to be very, very useful, but I did the first three novels under Joanna Penn, and then rebranded down the track.

And that's another tip: , nothing is set in stone if you own and control your rights because you can just change the name and upload a new version.

Pam: [00:24:45] Yup. Easy! Your latest book, Jo is Your Author Business Plan , which I really want to talk to you about, and it condenses your extensive knowledge on how to make a living from your writing and from writing related activities,  into one nice succinct book.

Why do you think it's important that authors have a business plan?

Joanna: [00:25:07] Well, it's only important if you want to run a business. So that's got to be the first question as an author is, 'Do you want to run a business?' And this is not necessarily something that you can answer at the beginning with your book one, because I feel like book one is the book of your heart that's been sitting there for years, and that you almost need to get out your system before you can even think about anything else.

So I would say that's quite important. But a business makes money and it makes a profit. It doesn't last very long if it doesn't make a profit. So, is that what you want? And if you want to do that, then having a plan really helps because it means you can think strategically.

We're not talking about editing commas and grammar, we are taking two big steps up above, and we're saying strategically, 'What do I want with this business? What is my production plan?' which I love talking about with authors. So, you know, 'How do I create my finished product? What goes into my finished product?'

[00:26:12] Things like my time and my research, working with editors and cover designers, and all of this type of thing. And then 'What about my marketing?' Because all businesses have to do marketing. 'What are the different types of marketing I could do? And how will they work? What can I do that doesn't make me crazy and what might I enjoy?' Like podcasting for us - we wouldn't do it if we didn't enjoy it, but it also sells books. Yay! And then, and then obviously having a financial plan. What I find with most authors don't think about this in too much detail. They believe the myth of the publishing industry - I don't even know where this has come from, but I had it - which is 'I will write this book. It will make me a million dollars and then I will be able to retire. So, I only need one book. Why are you even talking about writing more books? I only need the one. And I'll be famous and rich and everything.' And I thought that too, like literally, that's what I thought!

And when I got on A Current Affair, I thought 'I've made it!  Everything's going to change.' And it didn't. So, we're not going to wait to be anointed or have a lightning strike. We're just going to build a business with multiple streams of income that makes us money for the longterm. Makes a living.

So that's kind of why you would have a business plan is to help guide your journey. And so the business plan that I did back when I lived in Ipswich, I still have a picture of the A2 poster I I made for the wall. It just had The Creative Penn in the middle and then it had these bubbles. So it had e-books and hilariously, cause I didn't know how things worked at the time, it was eBooks and then a separate bubble 'get books on the phone'.  Yeah, 2008. It's really funny. And then it had things like speaking and teaching, it had consulting -  how do I help other people do this, it had products , online courses. Actually  just get one A2 sheet of paper, or you can do it in your journal. You don't need to write a 10 page document. In fact, I would say, do not write a 10 page document because it would be too much. It's just to give you a direction to head in and also to kind of calm you down. Again, a lot of the questions I get, someone will email me and say, 'How do I use Amazon advertising and Facebook advertising to sell more books?' and I'm like, 'How many books do you have?' ' Oh, I'm just writing my first novel.' And then I'm like, 'Okay, just stop it. Stop right now and go and finish your book.'

Pam: [00:28:46] Yeah. Just write the book first.

Joanna: [00:28:48] Write the book first and even just the first draft. If you can make it to the end of a first draft, you're going to be a lot further along the way. And if you can't make it to the end of a first draft, you never have to worry about Facebook marketing!  So obviously my plan now is a lot different. I mean, it's got similar buckets of income, but it's quite different to the way it was .So for me, it's things like 'This year, get another box set out  ' you know, 'Writing X number of books instead of finishing one book' and, you know, this type of thing. It's much more developed - outsourcing things as your business matures. Your plan changes, but having a plan just helps you with that strategic thinking time to sit down rather than be down in the minutiae, which is where a lot of authors spend their time.

Pam: [00:29:40] Mm.  Yeah, true...and  Jo, I wanted to ask you... a lot of authors, probably more trad, you know - because I've come from a trad background and my last two books have been indie releases - but I know from just talking to author friends, a lot of people feel very negative about the whole marketing idea? You know, it's like, 'I just want to write the books. I don't want to have to market anything'. And from my observation, over the last, probably five years, even in traditional circles, you still have to do marketing if you want to sell books. So, what would you say to people who might have a little bit of that phobia or negative attitude towards that whole idea of having to market as well as write the book?

Joanna: [00:30:21] Well, I mean, you're right.  Even, if you want a traditional publishing deal now they are going to ask you about your author platform and you know, 'How can you help us reach your readers?' And this is the crazy thing, you know, at the point at which you have a massive author platform, you then started getting publishers coming to you because you are the one who can sell the books for them. But what I would say is, first of all, you need to reframe that as 'marketing is sharing what you love with people who want to hear about it'.

So for example , one of my bestselling books is How to Make a Living with Your Writing. And the reason that sells so well is because people want to make a living with that. It literally is  a helpful book. And so that's a really good tip for nonfiction: what do people actually want? And how can you help them get it? And the same is true for fiction. So for example, your women's fiction setting what would you say? I wrote it down. 'Escape-worthy places'. Yeah, so people who want women's fiction in exciting places might want your book. So why is there a problem in telling them about it in a way that is not scammy or some  terrible 'Buy my book' on Twitter or whatever. What you're doing is offering it to people who already are interested. This is why something like a podcast is great. No one is forcing anyone to listen. And anyone who is not interested has turned off by now, or has not even started this episode or has not even opted in for this.

[00:32:01] So what you're thinking with podcasting is with this interview we're trying to offer as much value to the listeners as possible. Some of them might go on to buy my books, buy your books. And that will be, we've made a sale. Now we might never know. Might be someone finds this in years to come.

We don't know how that will directly impact book sales, but it doesn't matter because this is fun for us. We enjoy this. This is marketing, but it's also connection. It's being helpful and let's face it we like being helpful. It makes us happy. So even if it doesn't sell any books, it doesn't matter because we're enjoying the conversation. And so that's what I would say to people:  think about your reader and think about being either being useful or inspirational, which is usually what nonfiction is about. So inspirational memoir, whatever, you know, self-help, and with fiction it's how do you entertain people?

For reaching fiction readers for example, BookBub ads is something I do quite a lot of with my fiction. And if somebody enjoys a Dan Brown thriller, they're probably going to enjoy my Arcane thrillers so I know I can advertise to people who like Dan Brown, for example or  you know, a Val McDermid fan.  That reader might also enjoy my book Desecration. So it's thinking about the authors who people already like, and then finding ways to reach those readers with fiction. And then for example, my Books and Travel podcast is around a sense of place, as your books are. And so I was like, okay, well, if I talk to people about travels, then I might attract people who enjoy reading about different places.

And I advertise my fiction that way too.

[00:33:49] So coming back to people who hate marketing, again, 'Are you running a business? Do you care?'  If you don't care, then don't bother. Like literally,  if you don't care about how many books you sell or how much money you make, then just opt out of marketing entirely.

It doesn't matter. You're a writer so write. But if you do care, if you want to get your books into the hands of readers, if you want to make money, if you want to make a living with your writing make six figures, make multi-six figures,...whatever your goal is, then you are going to have to learn this.

[00:34:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:25] But we're quite nice people and having a good chat. This is a form of content marketing, and this is what I've built my business on. Blogging, podcasting, sharing, things that are free to make, you know, it's pretty much free to podcast. You pay a small amount for podcast hosting and you know, that kind of thing, but putting out podcast episodes, doing YouTube videos, doing social media, it doesn't have to cost you money. And then obviously you can spend money do things like paid advertising. The number of ways to market your book is unlimited.

So the goal is to find something that you enjoy and that it's sustainable for the long-term. And then start doing it and slowly you will attract readers. Over time. For example, I always say to people, 'All right, let's start easy. Do you like taking photos, you know, on your phone? Take one picture a day, one picture of something in your garde n.' You've got a property in Australia so what is normal to you is not normal to someone on the other side of the world. So how about you have an Instagram or Twitter or  facebook, whatever you decide and share one picture a day from your phone and just start that way. It will be fun for you. It will be interesting. And it doesn't need to say anything about your book. What it does is start attracting people who might be interested in you. And then from there, they might be interested in your books.

Pam: [00:35:52] Yeah. It's about creating those connections.

Joanna: [00:35:55] Exactly. And it does, it takes time. I'm sorry. But you know, this writing journey is not overnight success. It is a long-term thing, but then that's why you have to love it. You know, you have to. And I also say it's like any career..you know, I used to get paid the big bucks because I was an IT consultant for 13 years and I didn't get paid that much year one or year two or year five. I got paid that much because I had over a decade of experience. That's how I feel about the writing career as well. You can earn really good money this way, but it's not in year one and it's probably not in year five, but it might be year 10. Certainly, for me, it was pretty much nine years, really for me to hit six figures and then  it kind of went up  from there. So, I had by then 20 books. I had, you know, the podcast. I had an ecosystem. That's the way to think about it is that kind of longer term view. And then you won't go so stir, crazy thinking 'I have to do all my book marketing this week'.

]Pam: [00:37:04] Think of the big picture.

[00:37:07] One of the things that I wanted to ask you about is in Big Magic Elizabeth Gilbert   actually says something like 'Don't give up your day job, keep your writing as your passion. Otherwise  you could kill it if you are trying to make money from it.'

I think that that's probably something you may not agree with so much?

Joanna: [00:37:27] Of course. It's funny that she does say that because of course, she does make it.

 Pam: [00:37:31] Exactly. Yes.

Joanna: [00:37:33] I love that, but I love Big Magic. In fact, Elizabeth Gilbert changed my life  Her Eat Pray Love was the book that enabled me to stand with my happy choice of being child-free. It was that book that actually helped me make that decision actively, and say 'You know what? I am really happy to make this life choice'. So I will always love Elizabeth Gilbert, for sure. But anyway that book, yes... so what I would say is, okay, I've got 30 plus books now and I am proud of them all, but I wouldn't say that all my art, you know. I have a book called How to Market a Book. That book is useful. It's very useful. I wrote it because I needed to learn and then I updated it. It's on its third edition. Now, you know, is that art? it's part of my body of work, an important part of my body of work. But in terms of a book I'm very proud of, I've mentioned Desecration. That is my fifth novel. It means so much to me, it is a deeply affective book for me. And that's the book where I found my voice. But I would say that that series, I still haven't found a voracious market for that series. It's so cross genre that it's very difficult to advertise and it has some darker themes, and there is so much of me in that book that I would say that book is art. My art. And if you wanted to see inside the other side of my brain, then Desecration would be the book. But I am absolutely, with Liz Gilbert there, there's no way I could live off that.  I have so many ideas for books. And both fiction and nonfiction, memoir travel stuff. You know, I have lots and lots of books that I'm going to write, but the definition of art and money. Sometimes I guess you don't know when you start. For example, The Successful Author Mindset also has a lot of me in it. It's got a lot of my journal entries, a lot of my angst, it's very personal. And I would say that book is art for me because it's so personal. Do you see what I mean? I think what Liz Gilbert is saying is to respect the muse in a certain way, to make your income streams other things. So for example, you teach, you have you have online courses, you do consulting. All that is related to your writing. So I include that in how to make a living with your writing. Most writers teach, most novelists teach at universities courses whatever, I mean, that's not art, right? That's different.

Pam: [00:40:15] Yeah. Use of your writing and your skills.

Joanna: [00:40:18] Exactly. So, you could say that is part of my day job and in the same way, what I think with how to make a living with your writing and the different streams of income I have, I make money with affiliate income. For example, I do a tutorial on how to use vellum software and that type of thing. It's not art, but it relates to my writing and it brings in income. So that's what I would say to people. You almost need this portfolio of income streams to enable your art, but, if you love your day job, for sure, keep your day job. Absolutely. If you don't - as I did not - I was so desperate to get out, then you have to construct a portfolio career that supports your arts and that's what I've done. And I think that is what most full-time creatives do. They will have multiple streams of income.

Let's talk Pam: [00:41:11] a little bit more about Your Author Business Plan. You do have at the end of the book some questions for writers to ponder as they pull this plan together, which I found really useful  in looking at it myself, and I'm only partway through. But it's something that you can keep going back to. So, what would you say are the three must-do actions for an author wanting to make money from their writing in terms of having a business plan?

Joanna: [00:41:35] Well, first answer that question: do I want to make money with my writing? So that's the first one. Really being honest. People go 'Of course I do'. But the answer - in fact it was Tony Robbins, American self-help theory guy who I still read but back in 2006 I was reading a lot of Tony Robbins and listening to a lot of his stuff and  he says, ''What do you want to achieve?' and then 'What are you willing to give to achieve it?' Because you don't get something for nothing. Right? So if you say 'Yes, I want to make money with my writing' well, what are you going to do to achieve that? And that's going to be your time. So for example,  I did five years of the consulting job while building up my business as a writer and I would get up at 5:00 AM.  It's much easier to get up at 5:00 AM in Queensland.

And you understand this! When I say this in England, people are like, 'What? I can't possibly get up that early because it's dark , a lot more of the year.' But yeah, so I'd get up and write between 5:00 AM and 6:00 AM and then I'd go to my day job and come home, and in the evening I would podcast, blog, connect with writers, and the weekends I would work.

Basically, it was much easier to give up TV before Netflix, but, you know, we gave up TV for about four years. And I worked on building what at the time was a side hustle and eventually became a thing. So that's the first question, or two questions: do you want to have a business or do you want to make a living with your writing, and then what are you willing to do to achieve that?

[00:43:14] And it's going to have to be, as we've talked about a mindset shift around potentially from books that you sign contracts for to intellectual property assets that you own and control and understand how distribution and marketing and all these things work. The good thing is you can learn these things. But you have to have that attitude: I am willing to learn and you know, you and I both do this. You can learn this stuff.   We weren't born knowing how to write novels. We weren't born knowing how to podcast or do any of this stuff. And so you just learn. You learn the new things you need to learn. So those are probably the two biggest questions and probably the third one is how much money do I want to make and what are the ways I could make that? Especially in a timeframe. For example, yes, you can make seven figures with one book, but it might take your entire lifetime for that number to actually add up. So. How much do you want to make and in what timeframe, and then what are the different things you could put together to make that work?

I mean, we haven't even gone really into detail in terms of the different formats, the different countries, the number of books, the number of territories or countries, languages. If you take one manuscript you really can make all these different things from that one thing. And then if you add another book in there, it just keeps growing and growing and growing.

So those are some questions for people to think about, but it does come down to shifting your mindset. It really does.

Pam: [00:44:54] And as I'm talking to you and thinking about all the things that you do, you must have a very organized process, too, in terms of how much time you spend, for instance, on your podcast each week and  how much time you dedicate to your fiction writing and things like that, are you a super organized person  so you can get all those things done?

Joanna: [00:45:15] Well, I guess I am pretty organized. But what I would say is my overarching thing has not changed. So, when I said I spent an hour in the morning creating, and then in the evening I would do podcasting, business learning courses and weekends I would do courses, you know that's still what I do. So in the mornings I do creative work. We're talking now in my morning, which I never normally do, but because you're in Australia. But normally I get up and I'm working on whatever, and I have a sticky note that only has one book title on it and that's in front of me here and that's what I'm working on. So that's what I do in the morning.

And then I will do some exercise or whatever, and then in the afternoon I'll be doing business stuff. So marketing, podcasting, accounting, all the emails, all the things you have to do to run a business I do in the afternoon. And that's literally how I run my life. It's mornings creative work, afternoons, other stuff.

Whether it's an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening or all day, then the principle still applies.  If you want to do this, you have to make the time for creating your body of work. And you have to make the time to learn the skills and put them into action around the other side of things.

So, yeah. People listening, whatever time you do have, whether it's half an hour a day then fine. It has to be something, a book doesn't magically appear out of air and a business doesn't magically appear overnight.

Pam: [00:46:45] Very true.  So, if you were writing a novel, a certain amount of time each day or a certain number of words each day, and then gradually over a period of time, you can end up with that finished novel. And it's the same, I guess, for any sort of. Aspect of the business as well.

]Joanna: [00:47:00] Yeah, exactly.  And actually it's funny, I mentioned Year of the Novel again, I remember that first day, I think there were 20 of us in the class and the teacher said 'Only one of you in this room will finish a novel'. Like she actually said that! 'But don't, don't worry because this is this Year of the Novel which means that you can you know, expand your craft, blah, blah, blah'. And I heard that and I was like, that's going to be me. And of course it was me and I finished it by November and hired an editor and all of that type of stuff.

 But it's funny  I really recommend doing something like Year of the Novel or Year of Non-Fiction or whatever it is in order to give yourself some structure and deadlines. I'm very adept at working with deadlines ‘cause I was a consultant and I always did that so I can manage my time to my own set deadlines. But if you're writing your first book or you're an indie author, you don't have an external deadline .Having a course where you go in once a month, you have a weekend or whatever, and you have to have written this stuff by that date can really help.  It certainly really helped me to get that novel done in that first year. So I definitely recommend having some kind of, if you can, external deadlines to get some of this stuff done.

Pam: [00:48:14] Very helpful. I'm a big one for deadlines. I'm useless without them.

Joanna: [00:48:18] Yeah, me too. But we haven't set them ourselves, right.

]Pam: [00:48:21] Well, that's the thing.  Like you say, if you're an indie author you have to set your own deadlines and you've got to find some way - have somebody else who's going to put a bit of pressure on you as well,  a writing friend  where you're going to swap manuscripts at a certain time. Or, you know, if you do have trouble setting your own deadlines, I always find having that commitment to someone else where you say 'Okay,  I'll have it to you by X date' that can really help. You've got to come up with all these different ways of getting the work done.

Jo, one of the things I love about you is that you are constantly coming up with new ideas and evolving. And I know AI is a big interest of yours at the moment, artificial intelligence, in terms of using that for recording books and things like that. But what is next for you in terms of your overall business, and your fiction.

Joanna: [00:49:09] I mean, with my fiction, I just have so many ideas that I want to write. I'm working on another Arcane  thriller, Day of the Martyr. So, with fiction, it is just about writing the next book. WIth my non-fiction, I'm working on How to Make a Living with Your Writing - the third edition.

And as you say, what's so interesting to me is, even the last edition was 2017. And there's a lot more opportunity. For example, I've never done a Kickstarter I've never done crowdfunding. And what I'm discovering with that is the incredible possibilities that there are with doing that.

So I'm now really thinking about maybe doing some kind of Kickstarter for a book that I've been noodling for years, which I call the 'shadow book', which is writing from the dark side. I have a second degree in psychology and I studied Karl Jung and the shadow and I've been thinking about this for many, many years and I just need the impetus to do it. Doing something like a Kickstarter would give me that deadline, that external deadline. I mean, I'm not saying I will do it, but as we're talking about it, it is something I'm considering. So in terms of my business, the other thing I'm looking at, as you mentioned,  the world and technology is changing very fast and there are new possibilities for authors around  writing with artificial intelligence. Actually, as we're recording this, I have a podcast episode that's gone out with an author who used AI tools to write his novel which is traditionally  published. So that was even a couple of years ago.  If people are interested in this sort of futurist stuff. The Creative Penn.com forward slash future has a lot of my episodes. And I've got a book obviously on artificial intelligence, blockchain and virtual worlds.

And the reality is in the last 15 years I've been doing this, the world for authors has completely changed and the internet has revolutionized businesses, and the pandemic has accelerated this change. Any business that did not have an online presence is really suffering - less so over in Australia and New Zealand, because you haven't been hit so hard. But in America, the UK and a lot of Europe, businesses literally that did not have an online presence have gone under.

[00:51:18] So this is going to continue to change the way things are, and there are some very exciting technologies that will help authors make even more money and do even more creative and wonderful things. So I, again, glass half full person, I'm looking at how we can do this and sharing on my podcast and with my audience, with my patrons on Patreon. Sharing how we can use these technologies to expand creatively and financially. It's funny, I have actually been a bit jaded the last few years, because I felt like everything was set in stone, had stagnated and then the global pandemic hit...

Pam: [00:52:00] Just to shake things up a little bit,

Joanna: [00:52:02] Just to shake things up, but it just shows you right? How you think. All I had in my head was, 'Oh, is this it now? Do I just write more books and publish them for the rest of my life?' And although part of me, the artist is  ine with that, the other part of me, the entrepreneur was like 'boring'. You know, what's next? And so now the artist is like, 'Whoa okay' and the business woman is like, 'Oh, Whoa, this is fantastic. There's so much going on'. And so it's almost like  2010 all over again. It's like when the international  kindle came to Australia and if people are interested  I can send you the link here on YouTube. It's hilarious. I started it in Australia. It's very old and there's a video of me when I got the first international kindle. I had it on pre-order so I was one of the first people in Australia to get the Kindle. And it's me and my house in Ipswich with no makeup, just doing this thing. And I'm like, 'This is going to just change everything. This is going to mean I can publish to America. And this is going to change author's lives!' You know this is more than a decade ago, and it has, it has changed all of his lives. And now I'm looking at a decade ahead, by 2030, how will the industry change again and how can we make sure we're well positioned to make the most of this?

And that's very exciting to me. And I realize for people listening, you might not be excited. You might still be getting to grips with your first novel or uploading to Amazon or whatever, but that's why I love to share my journey and will continue to, as I take advantage of these technologies and then show you how to do it as well.

Pam: [00:53:38] Yes. Leading the way I love that. I'm definitely going to look up that YouTube video.  Well Jo, the ebook of Your Author Business Plan has got a great list of downloadable templates. The book is out in audio book and print. Can you tell us where it's available? And where people can find you online, if they don't know already?

Joanna: [00:54:05] Sure. Well, The Creative Penn - pen with a double N .com and The Creative Penn podcast, The Creative Penn on YouTube. I'm The Creative Penn pretty much everywhere.

And the books should be everywhere online. Also you should be able to order it from your local independent bookstore as well, because it's in the England catalogue.  And you should be able to get it at the library as well. And you can also buy direct from me an e-book or audio the creative penn.com/books.

All the links are there. And if people have any questions you can always tweet me at @thecreativepenn

I always like to hear from people and  Australia will obviously always have a massive place in my heart.  I moved to Australia from New Zealand because I met my, then wasn't the husband, but I kind of followed him to Australia.

Pam: [00:54:55] That’s how you ended up here? Okay. J

Joanna: [00:54:57] Yeah.  We got married in Noosa.  And because I did Year of the Novel there, and because I started building my business there, I will always love Australia for that. So, I really want to encourage Australian authors and, you know, New Zealand authors to think much, much bigger than just the country you live in.

I feel like authors obsess about the country they live in, but that's potentially less important than the rest of the world when it comes to book sales. Thanks so much for having me on, this has been fun.

Pam: [00:55:32] Oh, it's been a great chat. It's been so lovely to talk to you. And, I've read lots of your nonfiction books, Jo, and I find them really inspiring. So I  highly recommend them to any writers out there listening. Definitely look them up. Good luck with the whole lockdown situation.  I hope that,  you're out and about soon and that things start to improve, obviously globally, and also in the UK for you.

Joanna: [00:55:54] Thank you.

Thanks Jo.Bye.

Pam: [00:55:58] Thanks for listening to Writes4Women. I hope you've enjoyed my chat with this week's guest. If you did, I'd love it if you could add a quick rating or review wherever you get your podcasts, so others can more easily find the episodes. Don't forget to check out the back list on the Writes4Women website - so much great writing advice in the library there. And you can also find the transcript of today's chat on the website, too.

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You'll find me and my writing at pamelacook.com.au.

Thanks for listening. Have a great week.

And remember every word you write your one word closer to typing 'The End'. :)