The Business of Writing: Zoe Lea on Instagram for Authors

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Pam: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Writes4Women, a podcast all about celebrating women's voices and supporting women writers. I'm Pamela Cook, women's fiction author writing, teacher, mentor, and podcaster. Each week on the Convo Couch, I'll be chatting to a wide range of women writers, focusing on the heart, craft and business of writing, along with a New Release Feature Author each month. You can listen to the episodes on any of the major podcasting platforms or directly from the Writes4Women website, where you'll also find the transcript of each chat and the extensive Writes4Women backlist.

 On a personal writing note, my current release is All We Dream. You can check out my website at pamelacook.com.au

Before beginning today's chat. I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to the Dharawal people, the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia, and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging.

 And a quick reminder that there could be strong language and adult concepts discussed in this podcast, so please be aware of this, if you have children around.

Now let's relax on the couch and chat to this week's guest.

 Pamela: [00:01:21] Hi everyone and welcome to another week of Writes4Women. It's great to be able to come to you today from my very new, but very old vintage van Virginia. I recently purchased this van after speaking to Holly Ringland. I've been following Holly's adventures in Frenchie for some time and been quite envious, in a good way, of her lovely van Frenchie. And when I spoke to Holly, she was actually in Frenchie and it just really inspired me to go hunting. I was really lucky to just find a van very quickly. So Virginia is her name, named after Virginia Woolf for A Room of One's Own, because all of us girls need one, and she is a 1958 Globe Trotter.

So I've now been introduced to the wonderful world of vintage vans and this  particular van, has been beautifully renovated (you can check out some photos on Instagram, if you'd like to have a look) by a  lovely gentleman who took her on as a project. And supposedly she's the van from the Cold Chisel Circus Animals album cover, but looking completely different now. And I love the way that she's been done up in a very 1950s style. I am in the process of looking for some nice, brighter material for the curtain, for a backdrop, so stay tuned  and you'll be seeing those soon.

So to start with this week, I thought I'd give a little personal update and there's not that much to tell so it's quite short. I've been mainly working on the podcast and it's been a big learning curve because as many of you will know, Kel and I have gone separate ways - in terms of the podcast only. She's still a great mate of course, and her  business, Listenup Podcasting is doing brilliantly. But I've taken on the editing as well as the lead interviewing and prep, and also decided to upload transcripts to the website each week and to do a YouTube channel, which you may be watching me on now.

Not every episode will be on the YouTube channel mainly because of technical difficulties. If I'm speaking to someone from overseas, it doesn't always record well. I have also had a major drama in the last couple of weeks where my computer has crashed once, been put in  for repairs and then crashed again before I could even upload everything.

So I’m not real happy with that at the moment, but I'm hoping I'll get back a brand new fully working version very soon. I'm just working off my husband's laptop, which has been a little bit of a challenge. But anyway, other than that, I'm doing a read through of my current book that I've been working on for some time now I have to say, and I really want to get that one done. And my read through at the moment is progressing slowly, but I'm hoping to get that finished and to write the additional scenes and to have the draft done by the end of March. So if you're listening out there, please hold me to that and feel free to nag.

I also thought this week, I'd give you a little update on some new releases and some other things that are happening.

One thing that's been happening on the podcast is we did have an extra Anatomy of a Novel  episode come out. Jo Riccioni fabulous author and Fantasy writer, who has a brand new book, The Branded Season, hopefully coming out soon. Shout out to Jo for taking over the Anatomy of a Novel chair this month and interviewing Sam Hawke, Fantasy author of City of Lies and Hollow Empire. And these books have just gone crazy in the fantasy world, particularly overseas. You can go to the blog on Writes4Women and these books are up for giveaway. That does end fairly shortly. So I may even extend that because I don't think many people have heard about that. So if you love fantasy, it's a fantastically written book and you can catch that interview with Sam Hawke on the podcast. Find it wherever you get your podcasts or on the website. So thanks to Jo and Sam for that episode.

I also wanted to give a shout out about some new books that have been coming out in the last month or two and some that are coming out in March.  And I have to say a huge thank you to the publishers and publicists who are sending me these books to potentially speak to the authors on the podcast.

Unfortunately I can't talk to everyone who has a new book coming out but  I definitely want to give a shout out to these books and let people know that these new releases are out. There also be some blogs coming up on the  Writes4Women website from some of these authors. I know there's one from Kayte Nunn coming soon, and that is open to all authors, particularly with new releases who would like to do a guest blog post. 

First up there's The Imitator by Rebecca Starford. I've heard great things about this book. It says 'What a rare treat to find a novel that offers both white knuckled, suspense and evocative, beautiful prose. I loved it.'  That’s a cover quote from Hannah Kent. It's a great recommendation from Hannah there. So that's one that has come out in the last month or so. Another one, The Royal Correspondent from Alexandra Joel, that looks absolutely gorgeous. I love that cover. And I know there's a lot of Alexandra Joel readers out there who will love that book.

This one has a fantastic cover, Honey Blood by Kirsty Everett: Kirsty Everett was going to be an Olympic gymnast, but as she made plans to win gold loss, as it does laughed at her goal. At age nine, she was diagnosed with leukemia and spent the next two and a half years in treatment attending the funerals of children she met in the cancer ward.

So it's sure to be a bit of a tear jerker but I think there's also a lot in there about resilience and courage and overcoming odds. A fabulous cover, and sounds like a really interesting story. Another great historical fiction, based on fact is Kate Kelly, 'the daring sister of legendary Bush ranger, Ned Kelly. She was curiously found dead in a Laguna outside the new South Wales town of Forbes in 1898'. So this is another take and it's great to see  women,  being featured in history. We know a lot about Ned Kelly, but we haven't always heard a lot about his family and particularly his mother and sister.

Another one coming up (and I do have this author coming on the podcast)  is bySusan Johnson, From Where I Fell: 'An  anguished email from Pamela Robinson in Australia to her ex-husband in Paris, accidentally ends up in the inbox of New York state teacher Chrisanthi Woods. Chrisanthi is sympathetic to Pamela's struggles and the women began to tell each other the stories and secrets of their lives'. Sounds like one I'm going to love. That one is coming out this month.

Another one ... I just can't get over the gorgeous covers that are coming out at the moment... 'A  brilliant sliding doors re-imagining of the passionate life of the first  woman to win a Nobel prize. And the life Marie Curie might have led if she had chosen love over  science.’ It's called Halflife . Fabulous title.

I think I need to do a speed reading course to catch up so I can read all these fantastic books. And another one with a fab cover, The Mistake: Can one decision change, everything? Bec and Kate sisters, but they couldn't be less alike. Bec lives, the domestic dream with her surgeon, husband Stuart, and three perfect children, so  why is she so attracted to free-spirited Ryan.  Intriguing opening hook to the story there and another one that is out this month. So there are lots of great books coming out and highly recommend you checking those out on your bookstore shelves, or of course, looking online.

Don't forget the book giveaway on the blog. And always keep an eye on Instagram. There's going to be lots of giveaways coming up on Writes4Women coming up. I do want to share the love and share these books around because it's impossible for me to read them all.

Another thing I wanted to talk about quickly was I have revised  the Patreon benefits are everyone. Thank you so much to those people who are supporting Writes4Women on Patreon. If you're not sure what Patreon is, it's actually a subscription sort of service. It doesn't change the fact that Writes4Women goes out every week for free. Anybody can listen to it. It doesn't cost a cent. But if you just want to show a little bit of extra support, that just goes towards my time in putting together the podcast in all the ways that it's happening. You can sign up for anywhere between $3 and $7 Australian and there's various benefits, including everybody who's a Patreon supporter will now get a Wisdom from The Convo Couch, monthly curated tips and advice, little quotes taken from each episode over the month. So that's from four episodes. You'll get that in your mailbox every month. You'll get a shout out on the podcast. And if you are subscribing at a little bit of a higher level, you also have the opportunity to suggest guests, throw some questions at me for the Ask Pam Anything Episode , which is coming up  May on the 5th Friday of the month. And the other thing that will be happening is that for the middle and higher tier supporters, I'm going to put together the transcripts from either the Heart or Business of Writing episodes for one level. And if you're at the highest level, you'll get all of the transcripts collated together and in ebook format and that'll be in your inbox at the end of the year. So that's going to be a bumper edition, basically every interview, the transcript, so much writing wisdom in there. Fabulous advice from so many writers across all sorts of areas to do with writing. So that's for those supporters who are supporting the podcast  for around $7 Australian. So thank you to everybody who is doing that. You can check out Writes4Women  at Patreon via the website, or you can just go to patreon.co/writes4women . W R I T E S for number women. So, thanks again.

Now I'd like to get onto introducing this week's guest.

Zoe Lea is a novelist journalist, creator and storyteller. She completed her first novel at the age of six on two sheets of A4 paper and her first audience, her parents were very impressed.  So he went on to have her first short story published at age 16. She continued to write across a range of platforms, including print magazines, newspapers and blogs. In 2018  Zoe's  first novel, If He Wakes, a  thriller, psychological thriller, was published by Candelo Press. That was followed by The Secretary, a page turning and compulsive psychological thriller about a school secretary and how dangerous it can be to make enemies at the school gate.

Zoe has a wonderful blog on writing and the writing life but it was her Instagram posts that first caught my eye a few years ago. She lives in the lakes district in the UK and posts  the most amazing book photos, often outdoors in this beautiful setting that's just outside her window. Her Instagram following has skyrocketed from just a couple of thousand to over 10,000 in the last couple of years, which is why I've invited her to be a guest on the blog today to talk in the business of writing episode.

Zoe welcome to Writes4Women.

Zoe: [00:11:47] Thank you. Happy to be here.

Pamela: [00:11:49] Yeah, it's great to have you. There's so much, I want to chat to you about today, but I really want to start with your writing history. In your bio, we find out that you started writing as a child, but can you walk us through what your path to publication  has been?

Zoe: [00:12:07] Yeah, it's been a long one. So I started writing when I was a child, as many people do. I always loved writing, loved books. And then when I was at school I was obsessed with these magazines that had the short stories in there, like romance, magazines. You know, boy meets girl and I just loved them. And my English teacher at the time said, you know, "You should have a go at writing one because you writing all the time". So I did, and miraculously, I sent it off to the magazine and they wanted to publish it. So that was just amazing. I was 16 and I had a short story published in a magazine and I'd never even considered to be a published author, but my English teacher, you know, encouraged me to do it.

So I wrote for the magazine for a couple of years until it folded. And then I was doing college and, doing my studies and whatnot, so I still wrote, but didn't send anything off. I was kind of doing a lot of flash fiction, just journalling, writing like that, and then I think the next time,  in a professional sense, is when I wanted to do factual articles. Then I started writing them. I was training to be a teacher at the time, so I did a lot of educational articles. But I just couldn't leave fiction alone. And I was doing a lot of young adult stuff at the time and  getting a nice pile of rejections.

And then one of the bits of feedback I got was: you should try writing for adults. This would be a good adult story. So I toyed around with that, but didn't really get anywhere. And then it wasn't until I sort of thought: right I need to do this seriously now. And so I took Curtis Brown, online creative writing course.

And from there I began a writing practice if you like. Began to take it seriously. Got myself an agent, and then a few years later got myself published. So that's the nutshell.

Pamela: [00:13:50] Great! That's so good. And I've heard a lot about that Curtis Brown course. A few authors I've spoken to have done that course and have ended up being published. So it sounds like that was a really worthwhile thing to do.

Zoe: [00:14:04] Oh yeah, it was great. It was really good.  I didn't know what to expect from it really, but the main thing that I got from it was that I was being treated and treating myself as a proper writer, whatever that is like, you know, I was just taking it seriously. People were critiquing my work. I was helping other writers with theirs and the confidence it gave me, just the confidence, is the biggest thing that I came away with. It was really, really good.

  Pamela: [00:14:29] That's fantastic. And of course that confidence is so important, isn't it? Because it's easy to have that battered around with your writing. So that sounds like a really positive move for you. And so you had your agent and you were writing…what about the actual publication of your novel? How did that come about, the first novel?

Zoe: [00:14:47] Yeah, so the agent took me on. The book was in a poor state. So she said, "We need to really work on this, but I can see something there". So I worked with my agent for a while, did quite a few rewrites and then she put it out to the publishers. It got a couple of the foreign rights deals. And then Canelo came forward and said, you know, "We'd love to publish this". I was just overjoyed. It was brilliant.

Pamela: [00:15:10] Can you tell us a little bit about Canelo? Because I hadn't heard of them until I'd done a little bit of research on you and your writing and they sound like a fairly new publisher. Are they mainly digital first or how do they operate?

Zoe: [00:15:22] They are fantastic. Yeah. There was only going to be an ebook. It was always just you know, we do eBooks, we've got a great marketing plan. They were brilliant people. You know, they had it all out and everything, but then last year they actually published it in paperback format. So I think they are going into paperbacks. But I always have only thought that that book, If He Wakes was only going to be like an ebook. So obviously I was overjoyed when they said, "Actually, we'd make like to make it a paperback" because it was such a wonderful experience. Just having the whole thing done, you know, and working with them on my book and coming up with a cover and, you know, blog tour and everything else. It was just a really, really lovely experience.

Pamela: [00:16:02] And just to hold that actual book in your hand,  it's different to the ebook, isn't it?

Zoe: [00:16:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Pamela: [00:16:11] And that book Zoe is I think what, your second one, would you call it a psychological thriller?

Zoe: [00:16:14] Yes. I think that's what they come under. Psychological thriller.

Pamela: [00:16:17] What draws you to that genre? What do you love about writing that genre?

Zoe: [00:16:22] Do you know, I think it's because I love reading those books and whenever I write anything, I've tried to write sorts of romance and stuff, but I can't help myself from taking the darker turn. It's like everything seems to be going fine and then it's 'what if this happened or what if this went wrong'?  I just can't stop myself from doing it. And so I think it's because I love reading those and because I love I don't know the, the drama of it, I suppose. I just enjoy writing them so much.

Pamela: [00:16:50] If you love reading something, it's always wonderful to then dive in and have a go at writing it too. So it sounds like you've found your preferred genre for the time being.

So you have been published twice now with Canelo. Your second book, The Secretary, has come out in the last couple of years and you're well on the way with your publishing career. How has that experience been for you since you had that first book published? What have you learned and what skills have you had to develop in that time as an author, in addition to the actual writing?

Zoe: [00:17:23] The second book was actually published by a Piatkus, so that was a different experience as well. What I've learn?.Crikey. That you have to write every day, whether you want to, or you don't want to, you've got deadlines. You've got people waiting.

Also there's a whole other side of it that I knew about, but wasn't really that prepared for, and that's this kind of selling yourself as an author, which nobody really prepares you for, I don't think.  You think you can go away and write it and then you'll have this book and the publishers will take it out and all the rest of it. But there's so much more I think that you have to do as an author. 

 Pamela: [00:17:56] So how did you go about developing those skills? Because as I said, your Instagram in particular is really quite impressive, and that, I guess is what introduced me to you as an author. How did you actually find out about Instagram and how did you then learn more about it and how to go about using it as an author?

Zoe: [00:18:16] So I was already sort of fairly obsessed with Instagram before you know, the books got published or whatever. The Bookstagram community on Instagram is wonderful. The people on there, just sharing books, talking about reading, talking about writing, just a lovely, lovely community. So after the book initially got published, that's If He Wakes,. I started to think, "Oh, I should sort of use social media in a way that allows me to speak to the readers, but to promote my books as well. Or I don't know, just to get something out there. So, because I was getting a lot of messages and comments from people saying, "Oh, I've read your book. It was so good and blah, blah, blah." And it was nice to have a platform where I could converse with them and also, you know, just speak to the writers and other readers. So I started to do that in a more serious way, because I think the main thing with any social media platform is consistency. Because it's all algorithms. So if you post every day at a certain time, it sort of realizes, "Oh, the post is coming up". And also people realize that you're going to post at this time so they'll come and see you at this time and see what you've posted. And so I started to post every day, replying to comments, commenting on other people's posts and it kind of just built up from there.

And it was also really enjoyable as well. It wasn't hard work. It was just easy to do because, you know, if I was reading a book or whatever, and you know, it was easy to take a picture of it and then talk about it. And so it kind of grew from there. And from there I think it was like publishers that said, "Oh, you need a website as well. It can just be a page." But I thought well I think I'll put a blog in there as well. And you have to be careful because all of that can take over the actual writing time. So it's a balance between the time on that and spending time on, you know, writing the books.

Pamela: [00:20:01] How do you find that balance? Do you say to yourself, right, I'm only going to do X number of hours on the blog or on Instagram or whatever? Or are you a pretty disciplined person and you just force yourself onto the next thing? How do you manage that?

Zoe: [00:20:15] I don't think I manage it very well at all! I don't think I'm doing a great job. It's hard because you know, you could get on Instagram and think I'm only going to be 10 minutes and then a half an hour later, you're still scrolling or chatting with somebody. And so it's, it's difficult. I don't think I've got that sorted, but I suppose I try to just give, you know, set amounts of time to socials and the blog. But I find that if the writing's going really well and I'm in the exciting parts of the book, it's very easy to let that drop and, you know, let it go. So  it's a real balance, keeping them both together. It's difficult.

Pamela: [00:20:51] So, can you just walk us through, from when you decided, okay, I'm already on Instagram, but I'm really going to try now and use it to help promote my books and to promote my author platform, that sort of thing. What steps did you take then to try and have more of a presence?  You mentioned posting every day around the same time. What other things did you do then to try and increase your presence, which actually resulted in you gaining quite a lot of followers?

Zoe: [00:21:15] So I remember thinking, well, if Instagram is going to fit in with my life, I have to take  pictures of where I am and what I'm doing. I'm lucky enough to live in the Lake District, which is in England, which is absolutely beautiful.  You go anywhere out of my door and the scenery is just gorgeous.

So I'm really, really lucky that that's all around me. And so I did think, right, well, I liked reading outdoors in the late district. I liked writing outdoors and it was when I combined the two that things really took off. I think also it was just like  an authentic thing because I was just going out and I'd have like a bit of a hike or walking and I thought right, I'll start here. And I've always got a book with me. So it was when I started to take pictures of outside with the book and that just seemed to take off. And it was also, I suppose, because I was I say posting every day. Put in a bit of thought into what I was posting and the captions as well, because Instagram has captions. You can have a full blog post in there. It's so lovely. So it's just sort of putting in a bit of time and thinking, 'what do I want to write about? What is it the people who are following me, what are they gaining from this and what can I tell them that they come away with something?’ It was just that kind of approach to it rather than thinking, 'Oh, I'll just do a quick selfie and then, or a quick  picture  of the cover of my book and say, 'Buy this. Out now.' It was just thinking about it from a different perspective.

Pamela: [00:22:35] So, it's almost like a little mini blog post, isn't it, that you're doing?

Zoe: [00:22:39] Yeah. I think it's important to think about what value you're providing for those people who have given up their time, who are looking at your posts or come to visit your page. So yeah, if you think about it like a little blog, then it changes the way that you handle the app and  what your output is.

Pamela: [00:22:54] And a lot of your posts, Zoe, are book posts. You've got those gorgeous pictures of the scenery with the books, and then the scenery in the background, more so than really writing posts. Would you agree?

Zoe: [00:23:05] Yes. Yeah, I would, because I think it's because I just love reading and I suppose when I'm doing a writing post I suffer from imposter syndrome. And so I think that that thing of like, 'Oh, I'm writing yet? But, Oh, you don't want to hear about that. Let's talk about this bookinstead.' When really I do need to put more of those in I think.

Pamela: [00:23:24] But then by doing those book posts, you are connecting with readers aren't you? Which is really important because you want to find readers for your writing.

Zoe: [00:23:32] Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's it. So I'm connecting with a lot of readers. But a lot of writers are also readers. So I think the main thing is you've just got to post what you love. Otherwise it becomes such a chore and it's the last thing you want to do:  I've got to go and post on Instagram. I've got to do a Facebook post or whatever. So I think the best way to approach it is make sure you enjoy it and then it won't be hard work. 

Pamela: [00:23:56] And back when you started to develop what's become your style now on Instagram, is there a particular post that stands out for you? That you remember thinking, 'Oh wow.' You know that you got a great reaction to, and then encouraged you to continue down that path?

Zoe: [00:24:12] Yeah, absolutely. I can remember it. I was out and it was  twilight. I remember like, you know, the golden hour as it is. And I thought, 'Oh, I'll just take a picture of...' and it didn't seem that it was like going to be a huge picture or whatever, but it was just the open book. You could see the landscape and the distance and the hills and the book was open. You could just see my hand and I took a picture of it and I thought, 'Oh yeah, that's nice. Like, you know, you can see the wind, you can see the book'.  I put it up and didn't think too much of it. And it had about 2000 likes, which my likes normally were about a hundred? If I was lucky at 200, so it just kind of took off. And so I thought, 'Oh, it's fine. It's just a fluke. It's the hashtag or whatever.’ And then a couple of days later I thought, 'Oh, I'll just try another landscape'. So I did it again.  Just the same. And that really started building. I think it was the combination of the scenery and the open book. I love taking those pictures as well. And so I think it was that point where it all sort of snowballed.

Pamela: [00:25:11] And can you talk to us a bit about hashtags? They're a great way aren't they, for people to find you on Instagram?  How important do you think they are and how do you go about finding those hashtags that are going to connect you to the people that you want to see your posts?

Zoe: [00:25:27] I think hashtags used to be very important, but Instagram is changing all the time. But I still use hashtags because you don't know  how important they are from one day to the next. I think that the definitely worth using, so I always use it about 15 of them. And I always use different ones. I have a little group of them that I know that if I go to the hashtag, I'm going to find people who are like-minded. So if I go to #bookstagram, I know that I'll get a load of pictures of people. However, it's important to say that you want to use hashtags that aren't oversaturated. So #bookstagram, for instance, has got so many  people using that hashtag. It's better to use hashtags that are less popular, and then you've more chance of being found by the people who are browsing those hashtags as well. So it is important to do a little bit of research on your hashtags. But if you are using Instagram and you're enjoying it, you'll probably browse those hashtags anyway. So I always think: what hashtags am I drawn to? If I see something and I think: Oh, that's a good one, #cozyspareading for example. I think: Oh, I'll, I'll use that hashtag because it appeals to people like me. So that's basically how I use them.

Pamela: [00:26:38] So it's a matter of really keeping your eyes open, seeing what other people are using, how many people do follow a hashtag and  continually adjusting, would you say?

Zoe: [00:26:47] Yeah, absolutely because it's changing all the time. So it's important to just keep up with it, have a look. Keep changing your hashtags as well, and you don't want anything to get stale. It's important to keep looking and keep seeing what's fresh.

Pamela: [00:27:00] And can you pin down what it is about your posts that your followers love?

Zoe: [00:27:06] I get quite a few messages saying that people find my posts quite calming. Serene and calm. And so I've always kept to a kind of, image and books, cozy places to read, nice places to write, somewhere that's peaceful. And I always try and keep that in mind when I'm taking a picture or when I'm writing, but it's only about those things. I try and keep it as my happy place. I wouldn't suddenly start posting, you know, a messy kitchen thing I've got to deal with today because it's just doesn't fit in with the rest of my feed. So I always try and keep it like that: a bit of an escape. You want to just escape from the day-to-day. So I've tried to keep my feed like that, and I think that's what appeals to people.

Pamela: [00:27:58] Do you found that hard?  Do you sometimes take another photo and then you think: Oh, I really want to put this on Instagram but it doesn't fit in with my grid or the rest of my feed. Is that sometimes a bit of a challenge for you?

Zoe: [00:28:08] Sometimes, but I do that on stories and I think that Instagram stories are wonderful for that because on Instagram stories you don't have to be that precious or think: Oh, I'll keep it like this. So yeah, if I have photographs that shouldn't  go on the feed, like look what I've got to deal with, that's where I put all that stuff.

Pamela: [00:28:28]  Great. And there’s reels now of course. Are you doing much with reels?

Zoe: [00:28:38] I've done a couple, but not as much as I should. I know that Instagram is really pushing the reels, but I haven't done too many. I've done some, but it's something that I want to get more into. But again, it’s the time, it's just the time that it takes. And like I say, if I'm not careful, I can get sucked into that and just spend the whole full morning, you know? It’s actually so much fun.

Pamela: [00:29:01] So Zoe, with that whole aesthetic and the look of it, would you say that it is important to have that consistency in your grid? You read all this stuff about Instagram and how to use it and the grid having a consistent look. Would you say that's important?

Zoe: [00:29:16] I think it is important because I think that you've got to two to three seconds before somebody decides whether they're going to follow you or not. So if you want to portray certain image, or this is what I'm doing, this is who I am, then obviously it works in your favour to have a consistent grid where all your pictures are of a similar theme.

However, having said that, if your Instagram feed is something where it's just reflecting your day-to-day life and how it is, then that's also a theme in itself. If you see what I mean? Because people can take a quick look at that and think: Oh, I'm getting all the nuts and bolts here. Yes. I'll follow this person.

I think it's when you mix the two and it becomes a bit of a mishmash that people think: Well, I'm not following that because I don't know what it is. As long as it's clear, and you make an impression within those three seconds.

Pamela: [00:29:59] I think that's a good tip. And Zoe, your followers have increased over the last few years. You've got over 10,000 followers now, is that correct?

Zoe: [00:30:08] Yes.

Pamela: [00:30:11] And how many years have you been  actively using Instagram  as an author platform and a book platform? How many years has that increase taken? .

Zoe: [00:30:21] Let me think. I would say about two or three years. Yeah. A few years. It certainly didn't happen overnight.    

Pamela: [00:30:30] But it's still a lot of follower in that time.

Zoe: [00:30:32] Yeah. I was pretty pleased to get over that 10,000.

Pamela: [00:30:35] I guess, a couple of things from that… Firstly, what sort of opportunities have come your way as a result of having increased followers?  Have you found that it's been an advantage for you and also how has it impacted in terms of your book sales? Would you say that it's actually helped you book sales?

Zoe: [00:30:54] It's a really hard thing to quantify whether it's helped my book sales to be perfectly honest. I don't know that it's had a huge impact. It's so hard to judge. However, I do get some lovely messages from people from all over the world. Like I had one recently from someone in Hollywood and I don't know whether she would ever have known about my books had she not been an Instagram follower. So it's such a hard thing to quantify. For me, I just really enjoy doing it. I think if you're approaching it as like: I'm going to do this to sell more books, I think there's much more effective ways to go about that rather than just building up an Instagram following.

However, you know, when my next book is out, or when I've got something published or something I want to share with my followers, it is really great to have that platform there. And knowing that I can just pick up my phone and get in contact with them at any time to say, you know; this is on sale at this price, or, I've got this out or this is coming up. So it's handy in that way but I can't say definitely it's had a massive impact on book sales.

Pamela: [00:32:01] What other benefits do you think has given you? I mean, it is a really creative platform, as you say, and you really enjoy connecting with people. Is there anything else that you would say that you've been able to get from it?

Zoe: [00:32:12] Yeah, that's the main thing that I get: connecting with other writers and other readers. I've made some really great friends from it. That's what I take away from it. It's like a little pocket of friends that you can take anywhere. So that's the best thing for me. The other things that I got from it is I suppose brands getting in contact with me, you know They just get in contact and say: would you like to work with us on this?

So, job opportunities where they're looking for photographs or a bit of copywriting or things like that. Opportunities like that have popped up but nothing remarkable. The main thing is just connecting with other people.

Pamela: [00:32:48] And as I mentioned, because I know I've done it myself… I'll click on posts that you've had which are connected to a blog that you've written, and then I'll click through to read that blog post. So has it increased your blog reads as well?

Zoe: [00:33:04] Yeah, absolutely. Actually I didn’t even think of that but yes, you're right. Yes, it has absolutely. There was a post that I did just after I got quite a few followers, the open book one that was talking about previously and I thought: Oh, I'll do a blog post just describing exactly how I did it and share that. And that was the highest number of blog visits that ever had and they all came throughthe Instagram link. So yeah, it was really effective with that. 

   Pamela: [00:33:31] So it is a good way if you  want to encourage people to visit your blog or your website, a really good way to do it is to post and then have links.

Zoe: [00:33:38] Yeah, absolutely. I suppose if I was a bit more, I don't know I want to say professional, but had more time I would do that more. Yes. In fact, this is what I'm going to do. It's my resolution to do a blog post every week or and then post it on Instagram and add  the link.

Pamela: [00:34:05] Again, it's that time thing, isn't it?

Zoe: [00:34:07] Yeah, it is. Especially at the moment when I've got, you know, the kids at home and then you've got the writing that needs to be done. It's just really tricky trying to,  have time for it all.

Pamela: [00:34:17] For sure. I was going to ask you Zoe: what would be your top three or four tips, for someone who is maybe a new author or is an author who is new to the platform of Instagram? What would you suggest they do to set themselves up on Instagram and to then be able to build a bit of a following and make those connections?

Zoe: [00:34:40] Okay. I would say post consistently. Post at the same time if possible every day. I would also say try and approach Instagram as a social platform. Don't just think: how I'm going to set this up. I'm going to get loads of followers and, you know, that's it. Remember you've got to go and see other authors, see what other readers are posting, read other people's posts, like other people's posts. And that in turn will attract them to your  feed and grid. So make sure that you chat in the comments, that you're commenting on other people’s posts. And the other thing I would say just try and have a bit of forethought before you go ahead and post and try and see it from a reader’s perspective. You know, as if you were visiting rather than just putting it out there and think: what am I giving to this person who spends their time looking at my page, looking at my grid, reading my caption, what are they going to take away from it? Is it going to be a little tip that I'm going to share or a joke or just a nice little story? Think about what value you provide and then have fun and just try not to make it hard work, because I think it always comes across. If somebody is like: Oh, I don't want to post today. And they just made a post. So try not to take it too seriously and just have fun.

Pamela: [00:35:52] Yeah.  They're great tips, Zoe. And I love that attitude of thinking about what you can give to other people. It's not necessarily about what you're going to get out of it, like you're saying in terms of book sales, but it's about what you're providing. Almost like you're providing a service.

Zoe: [00:36:08] Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a lot more gratifying that way as well.

Pamela: [00:36:13] It is a sense then too that you are definitely part of this whole community because like you say, it's a strong writing community on Instagram. It's a strong reading community. So by doing that and sharing  something with other people, it really is forming that connection, isn't it?

Zoe: [00:36:29] Yeah, absolutely. I know I do that way. I don't think I would have carried on if I didn't have the conversations. If I hadn't met the people. Cause you wouldn't be getting anything from it, but you know, if you go in with that thinking: No, I'm going to chat with people, build a community. Then you'll want to join in with that because you'll have friends there who you're chatting about with what books you've read things. So I think coming at it from that angle is the best way.

Pamela: [00:36:56] Yeah, for sure. Well, speaking of books, your last book that you had out, which you said was with Piatkus, The Secretary. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Zoe: [00:37:05] Yeah. So that's about the school secretary, a primary school secretary, and  she makes a silly mistake and then has a lot of trouble from that mistake. So she thinks: I'm going to stand up for myself, and then it all goes a bit wrong and gets quite dark.

Pamela: [00:37:22] So another psychological thriller and is that one out in, in both ebook and paperback as well?

Zoe: [00:37:29] Yes. Yeah.

Pamela: [00:37:31] Brilliant. So people would be able to find online. Is that the best place?

Zoe: [00:37:36] Absolutely. You should be able to find it online. I know it's on Amazon, and most bookstores.

Pamela: [00:37:43] Well Zoe, apart from your social media skills, which we've concentrated on a lot in this interview, you are at a very accomplished writer. So what would be your top writing tips for writers be in terms of getting the writing done and then getting their work out there?

Zoe: [00:38:00] The main thing I would say is what changed for me, is to just take a different approach to your writing and give it the respect that it deserves. So you don't have to write every day, but do something towards your book every day, be it research or just thinking about it. And the other thing I would say is make sure you finis whatever you're working on before starting another project. That was always my worst thing, getting to the middle of the book, and then having a great idea for the next book. And I would never have anything finished but I think it's important to keep on, finish what you've got so you've got some things to work with instead of like a million half-formed books.

And the other thing I would say is to make sure that you don't let the voice in your head that tells you: oh what you write is terrible, you can't write today, this is awful. Just make sure that voice is silenced and allow yourself just to think: I'm just going to write. It doesn't have to be perfect. I'm just going to write, because there's all that time for rewriting. But if you don't start writing and you don't finish, you don't have anything to work with. So I would say that those were the top things.

Pamela: [00:39:08] They're great tips, Zoe. And are you working on another book now?

Zoe: [00:39:12] I am, yes. I'm just halfway through the first draft. Very excited about it. And it's another psychological thriller.  I can't say too much about it, but yeah, I'm very, very excited about it and happy to move on.

Pamela: [00:39:23] And of course you're in the UK and still in lockdown, is that right?

Zoe: [00:39:27] Yes. Still in lockdown.

Pamela: [00:39:30] And homeschooling?

Zoe: [00:39:31] Yes, I'm I've got a seven year old and a 17 year old. So yes, home schooling every day, as well as trying to get everything else done. So, it's a bit of a nightmare, but you know, we'll get through it.

Pamela: [00:39:43] Well, I hope that you stay safe and that the writing goes well for you. And thanks so much for sharing all your advice, particularly on Instagram.  I’ll put up a link to your website because I just want everyone to know you do have some fabulous blog posts on there about all sorts of aspects of writing, not just social media or Instagram. So there's some really great stuff there that people can jump on and have a look at.

Zoe: [00:40:08] Oh, thank you. Thank you. And it's been lovely to talk to you. Thanks ever so much.

Pamela: [00:40:15] It's been great chatting, so we'll see you on Instagram.

I hope you've enjoyed my chat with this week's guest. If you did, I'd love it if you could add a quick rating or review wherever you get your podcasts, so others can more easily find the episodes. Don't forget to check out the back list on the Writes 4 Women website. There's so much great writing advice in the library there.

And you can find the transcript of today's chat on the website, too.  And you can connect with me through the website at writes4women.com.au, on Instagram and Twitter at @w4wpodcast, the Facebook page Writes 4 Women.

You'll find me in my writing at pamelacook.com.au. Thanks for listening.  Have a great week. And remember every word you write, you're one word closer to typing the end.

SHOW NOTES:

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Zoe Lea

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Check out Zoe's books here

Zoe's post on using Instagram here

 

Pamela Cook

www.pamelacook.com.au

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New Releases mentioned in this episode:

  • From Where I Fell by Susan Johnson (Allen & Unwin)

  • Kate Kelly by Rebecca Wilson (Allen & Unwin)

  • The Royal Correspondent by Alexandra Joel ( Harper Collins)

  • The Imitator by Rebecca Starford (Allen & Unwin)

  • The Mistake by Katie McMahon (Bonier Echo)

  • City of Lies and Hollow Empire by Sam Hawke ( see giveaway on the W4W blog)

This episode produced by Pamela Cook for Writes4Women.

Writes4Women