From Music to Words: Gillian Wills’ Journey
“I have to go back to my childhood because I can remember at the age of four telling everybody that when I grew up I wanted to write a book.”
Buy BIG MUSIC
🎙️ Join us in this week's episode as guest host Laura Boon chats with Gillian Wills about her new novel, Big Music! 📚🎶 Discover how Gillian pours her rich background in music into her writing, creating a riveting tale that intertwines passion, politics, and power plays within the world of classical music. Learn about her transition from a musician to an author, the challenges of writing fiction, and her advice to aspiring writers. ✍️✨
🎧👉 https://pod.link/1275851144
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview
00:50 Pamela’s Personal Update
02:01 Upcoming Webinars and Substack Bonuses
03:01 Listener Survey and Writing Prompts
07:04 Upcoming Podcast Episodes and Guests
08:30 Laura Boon Interviews Gillian Wills
31:14 The Sacrifices of a Musician's Life
31:40 Challenges Faced by Musicians
32:17 The Importance of Acoustics in Music
35:14 Publishing Journey and Rejections
38:57 Inspiration Behind 'Big Music'
41:20 Writing Process and Craft
52:39 Advice for Aspiring Writers
58:21 Connecting with Readers
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Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
[00:00:00] Pamela: Hello, and welcome to another episode of rights for women. It is Tuesday, November five, as I record this. And this week's episode. Is another guest host Laura boon. Good friend of mine, fabulous editor and a avid listener to rights for women.
[00:00:18] Pamela: Laura today is going to be talking to Gillian Wilson about her new release. Big music. Now, this is a really interesting conversation and a great example of how channeling what you love. And one of your passions into your writing can be super successful. Julian was the Dean of music at the Victorian college of art.
[00:00:36] Pamela: So she is well-versed in the world of music and she has poured all of that knowledge and passion into her writing. And this is a really interesting chat between Laura and Jillian. So stay tuned for that. You may be able to tell from my voice. That I have got a low-key. I've spent the last few nights, coughing my head off all night.
[00:00:57] Pamela: Not getting much sleep. Anyway, one of those things that's going around.
[00:01:00] Pamela: But in good news. What I did manage to do yesterday was to send off. The final edited manuscript of a place of her own Q cheering. Yay. To my audio publisher, Belinda. This has been quite a long. Arduous journey. It's only been this year that I've been working on the book, but it's the third book in what I'm calling a trilogy rather than a series, because it's one character's story told over three books. And it's a story that I only ever intended originally to write as one book, but that character just would not leave me alone.
[00:01:34] Pamela: I'm actually going to do, I think, a little solar mini app on what I've learnt from that process. Not only of writing. Just the third book. But. Of continuing a character story over a number of books, something I haven't done before. And I know there's probably a lot of writers out there who do that, , who have recurring characters, but it was something new for me. Did teach me a lot.
[00:01:55] Pamela: I think about characterization and confirm a lot about what I already knew.
[00:02:01] Pamela: I'm also going to be doing. A webinar. So if you follow along on sub stack, one of the sub stack bonuses is that four times a year, I'll be doing small webinars. Where I. Wax lyrical about a certain aspect of writing. So I thought I'd take this opportunity to talk about finding your process. So that's going to be the first of the webinars that are going to be going out. And I'm going to be recording that in the next couple of weeks.
[00:02:29] Pamela: So that will be coming out before the end of the month. So if you'd like to be able to grab that bonus along with the many other bonuses that you can get on sub stack. Which you can all find on the subs tech app rights for women and on the sub stack website now would be a great time to sign up.
[00:02:45] Pamela: You can also play along over there as a free subscriber. And it's great to have so many people following the podcast on substantial. Thank you to everybody who is doing that. But of course there are additional bonuses. If. You sign up as a paid member.
[00:03:01] Pamela: Something else I wanted to tell you about is the listener survey that we're currently doing.
[00:03:06] Pamela: It writes women, my fabulous VA, Annie Bucknell has put this together. We want to find out what it is that you love about rights of women. What you'd like to hear more of what you'd like to hear less of. Any suggestions you had for episodes in terms of length, timing, frequency, guests. All of the above. That listener survey is now available and I'll put a link in the show notes.
[00:03:27] Pamela: I didn't neglect to do that last week. You can also find the link on the link tree. Link. In Instagram. And on Facebook. So we're going to keep pushing that over the course of this week. It's going to run for another week. Everybody who completes the listener survey goes in the drawer to win. Double book pack, which is a Christmassy book pack.
[00:03:48] Pamela: Comprised of a copy of a country, farm Christmas, featuring yours. Truly. Along with Penelope Genoo Lily Malone instill a Quinn. And then And also Merry Christmas by last week's guest, Mary O'Connor.
[00:04:04] Pamela: So we would love to know what you want from rights for women, please. If you do have an extra few minutes, it doesn't take very long, you do it all online and we would really appreciate you taking the time to give us your feedback. Another thing that's happening this month daily writing prompts, those prompts are going up both on Instagram and Facebook and on sub stack. So this is because I decided having finished my novel, which I now have. A little bit later than expected. But anyway, I just want to spend the month of November kind of regrouping. Doing small bits of writing, refilling the creative well. And to do that, I'm just doing little mini writing prompts.
[00:04:43] Pamela: So I'm sharing those on Insta and Facebook and substation, and would love you to join in. They're based on the whole concept of free writing. So that means that you just sit down with a pen and paper, preferably. You can do it on your laptop if you want, but it's great to have that mind, hand connection, I think for a change.
[00:05:01] Pamela: If you ask someone that always writes on the laptop. So I'm attempting to do that in my journal.
[00:05:08] Pamela: And it's a process where you just basically write whatever comes into your head. So it's stream of consciousness. That I call free writing the idea I originally got from people like Julia Cameron and. Natalie Goldberg and then her fabulous book writing down the bones. I think she might've called it automatic writing. We basically write whatever's in your head.
[00:05:28] Pamela: So the aim of this is to tap into your subconscious, which is of course where all the gold lies. The less we think. The more, we're able to access those beautiful images and thoughts and. Ideas and descriptions that are stored away up there. So this is a bit of practice at doing that. So you don't censor, you don't edit, you don't stop.
[00:05:47] Pamela: You just keep writing. And if you get stuck, you repeat the opening line. So all the prompts start with just a word or a phrase or a suggestion, and you go from there, set a timer for 15 or 20 minutes. And then you're done. You might find that you use some little bits and pieces elsewhere. You might never look at it again. Or it might just give you an idea for something. But the whole point of it is just to enjoy the process of writing.
[00:06:14] Pamela: So do join us for those daily writing prompts during November at rights for women.
[00:06:20] Pamela: Another thing that's happening in this again, it's part of the sub stack bonus is that we're having a writing on November 15, Friday, November 15. So that's Friday week at 2:00 PM. So it'll basically be a zoom. Cole where we start. By just writing for 40 minutes. We're all online, together writing at the same time. I will have a writing prompt there for anybody who needs inspiration.
[00:06:43] Pamela: Otherwise you can just write on your own project. And then we'll have a chat afterwards. So any questions that you have about the writing process about the writing life, about publishing. You will have the availability to be able to ask me those questions. Otherwise we just have a general chat about how our writing is going.
[00:07:00] Pamela: So that's Friday, November 15 at 2:00 PM.
[00:07:04] Pamela: What else coming up on the podcast? I was supposed to interview Joann fedely yesterday about her beautiful book. The whales last song. But that has been put off to next week because of my lucky. A little sippy chatting to Sandy Barker about her. Prolific writing and her very interesting writing career. Vanessa McCausland is coming up on the podcast.
[00:07:25] Pamela: Her beautiful new book, the last dilution of page white. Always a big fan of Vanessa's love her writing. She's been on the podcast a couple of times now and always has such eliminating interesting things to say. And another person who always has fabulous things to say is Nikki Gemmell, who also will be coming up on the podcast before the end of the year. I'm also hoping to chat to my good friend and writing buddy Penelope genu about her new book, the summer field.
[00:07:50] Pamela: Settlor. Possibly as part of the under the influence series, haven't done one of those for a few weeks now where writers talk about the four books that influenced their writing. And there'll be a Christmas wrap-up. So the podcast will be taking a break over the December, January period. So we can refill our well.
[00:08:09] Pamela: But there are plenty of episodes in the backlist for everybody to listen to. And it'll be a few more weeks before we get to that point. Anyway. So this episode is, as I mentioned, Laura boon guest hosts, chatting to
[00:08:23] Pamela: novelists Jillian wills about her brand new book, big music. Hope you enjoy.
[00:08:30] Laura: Hi, my name is Laura Boone. I'm an editor, a guest podcaster for Rights for Women, and the author of two novels and two nonfiction writing guides. The most recent of which is Tips from an Industry Insider, which provides behind the scenes insight into the book trade, which might be especially useful for aspiring and emerging authors.
[00:08:54] Laura: Which gives me something in common with today's rights for women guest, Jillian Wills, who has written a brilliant novel entitled Big Music, A riveting read about the passion politics, power plays, and music, of course, behind the concert curtain. In interest of full disclosure. I would like to say I worked on a very early draft of this novel with Jillian, although it has changed considerably since then and become even bigger and better.
[00:09:25] Laura: Jillian is a graduate from the Royal Academy of Music and also an honorary associate of the academy for distinguished services to the music profession. She's an arts journalist who writes for in review, A BR. Australian Stage online, limelight Griffith Review, and the Australian her memoir, Albert and me, our World Weary Musician, and a broken racehorse rescued each other, was released in 2016 in Australia America, Canada, United Kingdom in New Zealand, prior to relocating to Queensland from Victoria.
[00:10:02] Laura: Jillian was Dean of Music at the Victorian College of Arts. So the world she has created for her character beat is one she's intimately familiar with. A couple of early reviews really summarized the feeling and scope of the novel for me. Christina Olson said, funny and beguiling. Both those words are so true. And then journalist Ricky May Stevens said.
[00:10:27] Laura: One of the most commendable aspects of the book is its portrayal of the music world as something chaotic, emotional, and deeply political and institution full of larger than life personalities, egos, and conflicting visions. It doesn't shy away from the gender biases, romantic conflicts, and betrayal, beat endures.
[00:10:49] Laura: Her journey is about so much more than just music. It's about carving a space for yourself in a world that doesn't always welcome change. That's something that resonated with me and with me. I really think it's a book for beat as a mature character. It's a book for mature readers. Those of us with a little bit of life experience.
[00:11:11] Laura: Of course. It can be enjoyed by younger readers, but I think mature readers will really appreciate the nuances. I would add that Jillian has a rich vocabulary and a distinct voice. Reading big music both first and second time around was a great pleasure. Jillian, before we talk about the novel, I thought you might like to show us a copy of the book and read us a small extract.
[00:11:37] Gillian: Sure. It's a nice, big shiny book cover and it's a detail from the painter Mosley Moore's painting called piano. So obviously it was very relevant. So the book is based in Brisbane, and right at the beginning the book sets the scene. Beatrice stood on the steps of an old green Queenslander, a wooden house on stilts, the blue skies early morning tinge of lilac, had paled bleached by an unrelenting Australian sun.
[00:12:11] Gillian: She mopped her dripping forehead, flicked a mosquito off her arm, stared at the smear of blood on her skin. It was steamy airless, a clawing summer's day. Melody. Theo and Georgie were finalists in the Byron Bay Music competition, and on their way to give a recital nervously. They waited by a white minibus, glinting in the harsh light, dreamy eyed, a chestnut horse ripped at the grass, watched by a kookaburra.
[00:12:40] Gillian: Yards wooden fence luggage goes in here. The driver tapped the vehicle's trailer exactly, but this melody pointed at her large yellow cello case is not luggage. She took off her sunglasses and glared putting it in your trailer, and this heat would be like locking a toddler in an unventilated car. And Melody drew her forefinger across her neck as if it was a knife.
[00:13:08] Gillian: A flock of noisy white Carrolls wheeling overhead drew beatrice's eye and she reprimanded herself for letting her thoughts drift. If today's venture was to succeed, it needed all of her attention. She looked on ready to step in. If the exchange between melody and the driver became too intense, clearly he had no idea how protective musicians were towards their instruments.
[00:13:34] Gillian: She could tell him how some believed a violin or cello had a soul. Others thought a string instrument stored a player's emotions in the wood. The driver flicked through the company's dog-eared regulations and read out loud golf clubs, suitcases, backpacks, animal cages, and musical instruments are luggage.
[00:14:01] Gillian: If the 200 year old glue melts and the seams come unstuck, the repair costs will break you. Melody propped a cello in front of her like a shield. Is it yours? He said, no, it's on loan from Tower Long Arts. The driver checked his phone, shook his head, dropped his cigarette and ground it under his boot.
[00:14:23] Laura: I love it. It's a fantastic beginning. Thank you, Jillian. And I may have been remiss in saying this before, but welcome to the podcast.
[00:14:33] Laura: Thank you. Let's start at the beginning. When and why did you move from music to writing? Or perhaps expand to include writing alongside music.
[00:14:47] Gillian: Sure. I have to go back to my childhood because I can remember at the age of four telling everybody that when I grew up I wanted to write a book.
[00:14:55] Laura: Oh, okay. And
[00:14:55] Gillian: that might have come from the fact that my father was a Fleet Street journalist.
[00:15:00] Laura: And an
[00:15:00] Gillian: aspirational poet. And of course I heard about writing and books all the time in my childhood. And I also wanted to learn the piano. And I think encouragement goes a long way to pushing someone in a particular direction.
[00:15:17] Gillian: My father was too distracted to give any encouragement about me and my writing. In fact, he told me that it was an unsuitable profession for a woman. Oh, okay. But I got, oh yes. But I got lots of praise all the time from my piano teacher, and she told my parents. So how promising I was and persuaded them to buy me a grand piano.
[00:15:38] Gillian: And of course, the more encouragement I got, the more I worked on the piano and became very good at it. I think if somebody had given me equal measures of encouragement about writing, I probably would've done that as it was my favorite pastimes at the age of nine, were being outside in the garden with my animals or watching wildlife or the birds.
[00:16:01] Gillian: Reading, playing the piano or actually writing. I used to do, I used to write in secret fairy tales and they say that whatever a girl does at the age of nine, they tend to do when they're a mature woman. So I think that's rather interesting.
[00:16:17] Laura: That is interesting. 'cause I was going to say, not much has changed then.
[00:16:20]
[00:16:20] Gillian: Yes. I often think about that.
[00:16:23] Laura: Obviously you did your arts writing for quite a while and then you decided to write Elvis and me. And did you always know you were also going to write a novel or did that come as something of a surprise?
[00:16:38] Gillian: I'm just gonna back step a little bit because when I moved from Melbourne to Brisbane, I honestly really didn't know what I wanted to do with myself.
[00:16:46] Gillian: And IC certainly didn't want a huge old consuming job like the one I'd had in Melbourne,
[00:16:52] Gillian: And I, for a while nestled into the piano and gave him a few recitals and practiced and so on. But then it was mustin actually who gets me into trouble all the time. It was his fault. I bought this horse called Elvis and he said to me, if you dunno what to do, you've always said you wanted to write, why don't you just start writing?
[00:17:14] Gillian: And I got very cross with him. 'cause I thought at my age I was 50 or something. I couldn't possibly start writing. But I must say that the arts journalism really, to be honest. Was a pathway I chose because I thought if I write for newspapers and magazines through that, I'll learn how to write a book.
[00:17:34] Gillian: Yes, I have actually written nonfiction books for Oxford University Press about music.
[00:17:40] Gillian: But that was more academic writing I wanted to venture into creative writing. So I hope I, I don't know now why I didn't just start to write a book, why I put myself through, 15 years of art journalism.
[00:17:53] Gillian: But anyway, that's what happened.
[00:17:56] Laura: It's it's sad and still happens. I think that children who love to act are either janky or firmly. Discouraged often by parents. I'm always so happy when I come across a child who is encouraged by their parents. Sure. Because there's, there's a lot of, oh you can't earn a living doing that.
[00:18:18] Laura: And it's true that sometimes it has to be a sort of a passion project or a side hustle as the, seems to be the current terminology. But it's also true that there are people who make a living writing various things. If that's where your talents lie you should be encouraged,
[00:18:35] Gillian: and
[00:18:35] Laura: maybe the arts journalism was the sort of result of, your dad's newspaper background and a sort of gentle way into a world you knew if only by association.
[00:18:48] Gillian: That's a very good point actually, because I do remember the arts editor from the Courier Mail ringing me outta the blue and asking me to review.
[00:18:56] Gillian: An opera. And a very wise person told me that when I moved to Brisbane, it didn't matter really what I was asked to do within reason I should always say yes. So I was asked if I could write an opera review, and of course I said yes. But then realized that I hadn't really written for a very long time.
[00:19:16] Gillian: And it was a very funny experience. 'cause at first I was just in a state of panic, but it was as if my father was talking to me from beyond the grave. Think of a really good word to begin the first sentence, okay. Pyramid structure. So it's like a sort of osmosis. I think I, I had absorbed a lot of his skills and, it took me all night, but then I got regularly asked to write reviews and it, then it developed into writing profiles about musicians, which was great.
[00:19:47] Laura: That was great. And I actually imagine there are not that many people with the right background and the ability and the willingness to do those reviews.
[00:19:57] Laura: So I'm sure you're in demand. How did you find the transition from nonfiction to fiction? Whether it's was the arts writing or the memoir all of which are nonfiction even though there are obviously creative aspects. Yes, of course. To a memoir to full fiction, if I can put it that way.
[00:20:17] Gillian: I think to write a novel, it was just as difficult for me to start writing a novel as it was for me to start writing a memoir. And I think a lot of writers say that you have to learn to write every book I. That you write, and I think that's very true. I had lots of ideas for the novel.
[00:20:38] Gillian: It took a time though to actually make it realistic 'cause I began with too many characters, too many interesting stories, and I realized it was too complex that I had to convey what can be a very turbulent world. Through only a few characters so that people could identify with them rather than have 12 and have to have a glossary of all their names and what they were like.
[00:21:03] Laura: That's quite funny because, one of the things that a couple of things that always stayed with me, even from the early draft of, big music were first of all the sort of intense emotions that you generated, indeed on the page, which really made the characters come to laugh because those feelings were so big.
[00:21:24] Laura: And then the second thing was that I thought it was a very complex plot with a lot of characters. So it's a good thing. I didn't see the version with 12, main characters. So
[00:21:34] Gillian: I think that you gave me that advice. And sometimes we're very critical of ourselves, but I love positive criticism.
[00:21:42] Gillian: I think when you're trained as a musician, it's essential. How loud did I sound? Am I drowning out the violin? What did you think of this? And what I do with criticism as I think about it and I think what's true about this, and if I think it's true, I act on it. If I feel the person has sour grapes or something, I might ignore it.
[00:22:01] Gillian: But often I think there's a lot of truth and it was very helpful and to me also because it was very difficult for me to keep track of all of these various characters. I would like to say that was encouraged to write this book because once somebody said to me. What a cushy job you have. And this was when I was Dean of Music and if you are in charge of a music school, you're not just running educational programs, you're actually running a whole performance annual schedule season, if you like, of recitals, operas and orchestral concerts.
[00:22:35] Gillian: And it's a very turbulent world. The musicians there are very tense people. They can be quite tram track. They spend their life. On top of everything else they do, they have to, like athletes work their muscles practice if they're a pianist or a violinist, maybe six hours every day. And then they work in an institution where they're teaching, attending meetings, doing administration.
[00:23:00] Gillian: So tempers can fray very easily. And I found myself in that environment having to pretend I was a very measured, calm person, where in fact, I'm just as volatile and emotional myself. But one of us had to pretend not to react too much to the situations I. And I think it's a difficult role because it's exciting and you really want to help all of the characters because they're so committed and so dedicated and really they just want to make more and more very good ventures musically.
[00:23:34] Gillian: I. You want to help them do that. But when you explain to them that they can't have a particular rehearsal hall or there isn't another $20,000 in the budget things can become very fraught. And I always feel very, felt very torn because I really wanted to help them as much as possible.
[00:23:52] Gillian: 'cause I understood the venture.
[00:23:55] Laura: Yes.
[00:23:56] Gillian: But it was anything but a picnic in the park as a position.
[00:24:00] Laura: I just find that highly entertaining because any job where you have to manage people, it's never going to be
[00:24:08] Gillian: no, of course, walking
[00:24:09] Laura: in the park. And if those people are all of an artistic temperament it just got a whole lot harder, I would say.
[00:24:19] Gillian: The thing is, they've either just given a performance. Or they're thinking about the performance with the Queensland Symphony Orchestra in two weeks time and they haven't practiced enough. And so there is this fervent distraction always in their minds, and you have to be very understanding of that.
[00:24:38] Laura: So I think let's talk a bit about the process of writing the book. I know it took a number of years. And that makes sense obviously as your first novel. And you've talked about, feeling your way into it and cutting down on the number of characters.
[00:24:54] Laura: Talk to me about the ghost. Talk to me about when did you decide to introduce the ghost and why?
[00:25:03] Gillian: I used music in various ways in the book and when I was interviewed on the radio a few days ago, I told Gary Thorpe, the interviewer, that I'd overanalyzed everything I was gonna do in the book.
[00:25:16] Gillian: But funnily enough. I didn't actually think about the musical examples and the rationale for why I had used certain music examples fitted in and I realized later I was rather unselfconscious about it, but I was self-consciously using the character of Beethoven. Because this young woman, Beatrice, who's nicknamed beat, she's so determined to restore the reputation of this music college and she'll do anything.
[00:25:46] Gillian: And she takes risks and she does unconventional things and unconventional approaches, which upsets some of her rather disbelieving colleagues. And I used Beethoven because Beethoven is a marvelous rebel in the history of music. I like his music, of course, but he was a rebel. Although he towed the line at first in terms of musical structures.
[00:26:10] Gillian: Very soon he was turning the musical world on its head in the classical period as this young woman does in terms of managing this institution. She's never managed one before. She's innocent. She doesn't know how to do it. She knows the end result, and she takes, rather imaginative out of the box, lateral thinking approaches, which makes her colleagues, raise their eyebrows and distrust her even more.
[00:26:38] Gillian: But I thought that Beethoven was an interesting foil to her rebellion for which she gets into trouble for as he did
[00:26:47] Laura: But you
[00:26:48] Gillian: asked about the goat.
[00:26:49] Laura: Yes.
[00:26:52] Gillian: I think, I think I find when writing that some things are planned and then other times you get a very nice surprise. And all of a sudden I had beat go and visit this rather lovable, but rather eccentric head of keyboard called Vera.
[00:27:10] Gillian: And, when she's in Vera's studio it's always like an Aladdin's cave and she has yellow velvet sofas and trinkets and colorful bookshelves, and she paints things bright colors, she's like a bower bird. She collects interesting artifacts. But one day and this was as much a surprise to me as anybody else reading it, but one day beats in her office, she's about to go home.
[00:27:33] Gillian: It's a Friday evening, it's all over. She's looking forward to it, and in her doorway appears a very white, shaky, shocked looking Vera. And Vera says, I need you to come with me. So Vera goes into this Aladdin's cave with two grand pianos and recording devices and so on. And El Vera's a very dramatic soul, and she's wearing a black velvet dress down to the ground, black lace gloves and so on.
[00:28:02] Gillian: And she tells beat that she's been playing Beethoven's Tempest Sonata and there's a reason for that, which I can tell you. And then she heard a German voice telling her that she was making a lot of noise. And beat starts to think to herself what, how lucky she is to have a job where she's constantly surprised by interesting, intriguing situations.
[00:28:25] Gillian: But Alvera is dead serious that she has had a conversation with Beethoven who urged her. To run a Beethoven and rock festival because Beethoven was very supportive of Napoleon when he thought he was a left wing human rights. Activist, but when he wasn't, he got very annoyed. But at this stage in his life he's rebellious and he wants to look after the people.
[00:28:50] Gillian: So he thinks that rock is the music of the people, and his music should be featured alongside his now. Although it seems very rational in the way I've described it, for a musician, a classical musician, to be told that there's going to be a classical festival with Beethoven music alongside rock, that's not going to be a popular idea.
[00:29:13] Gillian: And so it was fun really to have the ghost of Beethoven suggested. I think because he's so revered, he is like A giant of composition.
[00:29:23] Laura: Yes.
[00:29:23] Gillian: The ture, the man really often, even people who don't know about classical music, they associate Beethoven with it, I think.
[00:29:32] Laura: And a
[00:29:32] Gillian: lot of Beethoven's music is on TV and, midsummer, murders and ringtones and airport lifts.
[00:29:40] Gillian: . And I wanted the story to be relate, relatable to the general reader who doesn't know anything about music as much as I wanted it to relate to the professional musician. And that was something I did learn from my father. Whenever you write about it, you write about it in a way that anyone can understand whether they're a specialist or not.
[00:30:00] Gillian: So that's something I have always strived to do when I write reviews about music, for instance.
[00:30:07] Laura: I think you've really got that right because we weren't really a musical family I have. No musical history other than obviously I like certain types of music. But and there are funny enough, Beethoven's nine says I don't think anyone can listen to it and not love it.
[00:30:26] Laura: But I don't know a lot about classical music and I certainly can't read it or any of those things, but I never once felt lost, when reading big music in terms of, oh. That's all a bit too esoteric for me. I'm not sure what they're getting at. So you really did that beautifully.
[00:30:45] Gillian: That's really good to hear because really that's what I always had in mind. Because I think there's a mystique about classical music and people think it's for rare. Souls who spend their life listening to CDs and playing the piano, whatever. But it isn't, it's for everybody.
[00:31:03] Gillian: And I wanted to show them the difficulties involved because we just think if you want to listen to music, let's press a button. Turn on the computer, turn on the tv. People forget. It takes years and years of sacrifice in terms of the musician's time. I remember never going on a holiday when I was at the Royal Academy of Music because a holiday was so I could practice not six hours a day, but maybe practice seven hours a day.
[00:31:28] Laura: Okay.
[00:31:28] Gillian: And and after leaving Music College, you can never stop. Because an athlete, if you stop, you can't run or do javelin, whatever, and you can't play anymore. I wanted to show that it's incredibly difficult because on top of all of that, there are rehearsals, there's administration, there's the booking of the hall, the organization of the hall finding the players.
[00:31:52] Gillian: It's a huge ask always, and I think that's why, there's a bad situation at the moment in Tasmania where the Hobart Hobart, sorry concert hall. Everybody's very upset in the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra because the government want to build an A FL stadium only 170 meters away from the stage.
[00:32:16] Gillian: My God. And people. People forget that silence and sound management is crucial because musicians are painting in sound, and if they can't hear themselves because there's a raucous crowd cheering on a football match next door, you're not gonna get a very good performance. But that's not very understood.
[00:32:36] Gillian: Even when they built the Sydney Opera House, the acoustics were appalling. That's all been changed now, but
[00:32:42] Gillian: years ago now, maybe 10 years ago. And I was writing a story about Lyndon Tarini, who at the time had just been appointed the artistic director of Opera Australia. And he introduced me to some of the musicians in the orchestra and I was very shocked when the musicians told me that they found it difficult.
[00:33:02] Gillian: If they say we're playing the clarinet to hear what the horns or the strings were doing because of the woeful acoustics, and of course they're below stage, which makes it even worse. I remember Lyndon, who's very determined saying that he would mount productions everywhere other than in the Sydney Opera House until he could raise the money or get people to listen about the imperative to change the acoustic.
[00:33:28] Gillian: And I'm sure that upset a lot of people. But at last, though, finally, the acoustic is much more suitable and it's because people I think don't understand about music that the conditions. For musical training or rehearsal are not the best, and musicians get very used to performing in a broom cupboard or practicing underground a railway station or whatever.
[00:33:52] Gillian: But really it's not the optimal situation to achieve high quality performance.
[00:33:59] Laura: And I suppose just thinking of myself, we've all seen that sort of image in documentaries or films where. You've got a rock musician recording in a studio and they've usually got headphones on to block out any other noise.
[00:34:18] Laura: I wouldn't automatically have thought, yes, of course the person who's playing the clarinet needs to hear the other instruments so that. He or she knows when they're coming into a particular piece or, all those things. It's all very audible, it's all based on Yes, indeed. On hearing.
[00:34:35] Gillian: Yeah.
[00:34:36] Laura: And
[00:34:36] Gillian: it just shows the level of skill there is for them to have been able to have managed that
[00:34:41] Laura: Yes.
[00:34:41] Gillian: For years. But there's a great deal of difficulty for classical musicians because it's an acoustic art. It's not amplified unless it's classical guitar. So the rock music musician needs the headphones to make sure that they can hear themselves and other people and they can tune into other people.
[00:35:01] Gillian: But the acoustically played instruments, it's very important on someone's normal hearing to be able to access the sound that they're accompanying or that they might be playing a solo in front of, okay. I did want to talk about the publishing. Experience because the first time I had a dream run as an author told me, I turned 60.
[00:35:24] Gillian: And the day after my 60th birthday party, I'd been challenged by a woman friend to write a pitch to a publisher about a book. And I'd told her I wanted to write about this horse. And she said you better get on with it, otherwise I'm never gonna believe a word you say. So the next morning I thought, all right, I'm going to do this.
[00:35:44] Gillian: And so I wrote a pitch, I wrote a proposal to Finch Publishing, and I had got a chapter, I think, and I thought I'll never hear from them again, but at least my friend won't have lost heart with me. Within a few hours I got a message back from Finch saying, we love this, send us the manuscript.
[00:36:03] Gillian: And I said. I can't actually, because at the moment there isn't a manuscript. And so that was the most amazing experience. But the experience I had in trying to get big music published, I think is a more a common course where you are rejected by a few publishers for various reasons.
[00:36:22] Gillian: Interestingly, I was told by a few publishers that they didn't think. The subject of music and classical music and a music conservatorium would be of interest to anyone. And that I wouldn't sell many books. But it's interesting to me now because having published it there's a sway of books now.
[00:36:41] Gillian: There's a book called Instrumentation by Harriet Cunningham. There's the Girl with the Violin by Shelly Dau. There's a book, a Compendium of Short Stories, all with musical themes. There's another book, which is called Band on the Road by a young man published by UQP. So it seems very much that there's a zeitgeist at the moment about books which are actually connecting to the world of music, which is as much as interesting world as our hospital or a university or a school or government.
[00:37:16] Gillian: As you said earlier any organization with people. Is bound to be political and fraught and emotional from time to time.
[00:37:24] Laura: I always find it frustrating, how in publishing you'll often be told by publishers that they're looking for, something new and alternative spin on things, and then.
[00:37:38] Laura: When you write it as you've done. Yeah. Then, uh, then well, no, we don't think anyone will be interested in that just because it hasn't been done before, so they don't have any sales figures to back it up. Yes. And in your case, there's probably, the stereotype of, oh classical music has just.
[00:37:54] Laura: Or a few people who go to fancy concerts and things. Meanwhile, just about every school child in Australia. Yeah. Learns to play an instrument.
[00:38:04] Gillian: Yeah.
[00:38:04] Laura: At some stage and they carry that with them to adulthood. And
[00:38:08] Gillian: I did point out to some publisher that there's a huge.
[00:38:12] Gillian: Population of musicians, for example, the A CO have maybe 70,000 people on their Facebook page. Wow. Okay. All of the major orchestras in the country, the Australian String Cortex Opera, Queensland, opera Australia, and in fact, all of these organizations are now very willingly advertising big. Music 'cause I, I think it's the first one that's really looking at the grounds root development of top performers and musicians are relating to that.
[00:38:41] Gillian: And so that's terrific and it's really thrilled me.
[00:38:44] Laura: I'm really pleased to hear that. Just because I think it's a fantastic novel. Where the support comes from. That's brilliant. And that maybe takes us back to what was the real inspiration behind big music?
[00:38:57] Laura: Was it your personal experience or was there a particular thing you wanted to explore?
[00:39:04] Gillian: I think it harks back again. To my father who would say to me if really upsetting things happen, or bizarre situations, or you are frightened or whatever, you're stuck in a lift.
[00:39:17] Gillian: Write about it. Think about it as material for a book or a story. And I do remember my first few weeks at the Royal Academy of Music were a little bit turbulent because the piano professor was very bad tempered and he didn't explain to me how to practice properly. And you, we were talking about the tempest Sonata earlier, and I'd learned the tempest Sonata and I'd put hours and hours into practicing it.
[00:39:43] Gillian: But he shouted at me. I was 18 years of age, very shy at the time. And he said, that is a terrible interpretation of that sonata. And he picked up a piano store, which was very heavy, really So sturdy. Yes. Picked it up above his head. And I said to him something like, how dare you move towards the door?
[00:40:09] Gillian: And he threw the piano store and it actually landed a few feet away from my legs. Good God. I remember thinking I'm definitely gonna put that in a book one day. Yes. And it was always something I did. So whatever stressful situation I was in, if somebody was having a piece of me or I was very nervous or whatever situation was, I'd think that's probably good material.
[00:40:33] Gillian: And so I've always had this attitude of storing away stories that might be useful. One day. It's a shame it took me 60 years to get round to using the material, but I've got very rich sources of material. But having said that, it is fiction. Yes. And I have taken threads of various characters, men and women that are.
[00:40:55] Gillian: I've met over the years, but I've used other colors and threaded them together in embroidered new situations, new people. But in, to be honest with you though, if I'd put some of the real situations in the book that I've been involved in, I don't think anybody would believe it and they'd probably cast the book aside and say, this is too much, so there's nothing stranger than fiction, as they say. That's
[00:41:18] Laura: true. Yeah. That's very true. Um, let's talk a little bit about those threads. 'cause that was one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, weaving them all together from a a writer's perspective, from a craft perspective, because there are so many, all beats colleagues have, there's a thread of their stories.
[00:41:37] Laura: Through the book. Yeah. Yeah. There speaks professional story. Her personal story.
[00:41:42] Laura: The story of the school almost as its own sort of entity moves towards the concept. How did you stay on top of all those different threads?
[00:41:53] Gillian: I do remember the commissioning editor of Finch was very strict with me.
[00:41:57] Gillian: To make sure that people were not recognizable and so on. I did have this awareness a very strong light in my head to be very careful that I was writing fiction, and so I do think that it wasn't just at the Victorian College of the Arts, I met colorful classical musicians.
[00:42:16] Gillian: We had an artist program and we deliberately asked musicians from all over the world. As extra stimulus because Australia particularly 15 years ago was more cutoff from the world. So it was important for students to know of the high standards out there and the different approaches. And so I met the most extraordinary conductors and soloists from all over the world.
[00:42:39] Gillian: And then at one stage, I became the chair of the National Council of Tertiary Music School. So my mind was opened up to situations in the Tasmanian Conservatorium of Music, the a NU School of Music, and the other institutions all across the country. So I've had such rich experience that in a way it was quite easy to ensure that I wasn't just, reflecting verbatim people that I met, but I actually was weaving a new story, but the material, I think and the experiences I had made it authentic and it was relatively easy for me to write about. I'm not saying that the writing just trotted out is not ever easy to write, but that the actual stories themselves, it was a joy to write about them.
[00:43:29] Gillian: I really enjoyed doing that.
[00:43:31] Laura: Okay, that's fascinating. I guess that's a sort of, the benefit of experience, isn't it? That all these, you have all these rich experiences. Yeah. And also for many of them you have the kind of distance required to write about them. Often you need that little bit of perspective to make it not personal, but.
[00:43:52] Laura: Something that everybody can learn from something universal. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:43:56] Gillian: I think there are disadvantages to having begun to be a writer at a late age, but there are advantages in that you do have a. A sort of controlled perspective, the distance necessary, but, I just wanted to go back to the publishing story.
[00:44:13] Gillian: You only need one person to believe you and, my shoulders were beginning to sag under the weight of publisher disbelief in the efficacy of this type of story, when I met the CEO of Hawkeye Publishing, which is a trade publisher based in Brisbane, and I decided that since I'd written to people so often and had rejections that maybe it would be good to try talking the publisher on a Zoom meeting rather like this.
[00:44:42] Gillian: And I was talking to Carolyn Martines about the book. She said I think it's a lovely story. I love the idea how would you like a contract with us? And really you only need one person to believe in you. And then my whole world changed and I found that I'd got to a kind of moment of staris where I was a little bit stuck.
[00:45:05] Gillian: Yes. But as soon as she said that, then the ideas began to flow and I began to work it up in a more creative way, which had more twists and turns and more intrigue in the story. And also there's a little bit of a villain I. It's not a black or white VI villain, but there is a gray villain in there who happens to be a violinist, and it's not based on anybody I know.
[00:45:30] Gillian: Yeah. They were fantastic in giving me the confidence to pursue it and very supportive, very communicative, and very helpful.
[00:45:39] Laura: To believe in you
[00:45:44] Laura: Confidence is also so good for the creative process. Yeah. People often talk about, and I suppose in a way, that's your dad again, something bad happens to you, write it down. That, really meaningful writing experiences come from pain.
[00:46:03] Laura: Yes. Or disappointment. But I've always found that in order to do the actual writing I personally, need to be in quite a good space. You, yes. So that I do, I have that confidence, that belief that I'm almost open to whatever ideas are going to come through, rather than them being shut down by doubts.
[00:46:23] Gillian: Yes. But when you may feel the same, but when I begin to write. There's a momentary full stop in emotional issues or practical issues or housework or whatever else is happening. And I enter into another world and I think you can become quite addicted to entering other worlds. Yes. And , and you're quite right.
[00:46:43] Gillian: It's, there's not emotion present. You are channeling experience rather.
[00:46:48] Laura: Yes. Let's perhaps talk a little bit more about the role of music in the novel
[00:46:53] Gillian: yes. I was interviewed for a story in Limelight Magazine by Joe Litson, and I really regret not having thought about this myself, but Joe said can you send us your playlist? Oh, for the music in the book? And then I realized of course I should have had a playlist. And I went through the book and I found so many musical references, which I've used in different ways.
[00:47:19] Gillian: And I have now made a playlist through Spotify. Because the music actually was the thing that came from a deeper place. I didn't wonder what piece of music I should use. It just popped into my head, I'm going to use this. May I talk about a couple of ways in which I use music? It would be I have to be careful though of not telling you too much for spoiler situations, but I use, for example, the Tchaikovsky piano concert, which I think everybody knows whether they like classical music or not.
[00:47:49] Gillian: They may not know the name, but it's a warhorse and we all know it. And I've used that for a dramatic situation, which involves one of the characters in the book who's quite ethereal. And she's called Georgie. And she wear, she has bare feet and curious clothes and a pixie haircut. But she's playing the Tchaikovsky piano concerto, which is full of grandiose music and it's mighty and it's philosophical.
[00:48:17] Gillian: Then something happens. 'cause I, I do have, I do poke a little bit of fun at some classical music rituals. And so I do very much so in the performance of this concerto. So sometimes I'm creating a scene because the players or group of musicians are actually involved in playing music. But sometimes I use the music because it.
[00:48:42] Gillian: It may be accompanies a particular emotion or it is a distraction for a character in a conversation. So I've used it in different ways and a lot of Conservatorium are criticized because they're not radical enough in the type of music that they promote. So I wanted to show that this young woman, although she's worthy and she really does her best at the expense of her own life and her personal life to restore this music school's worth she makes mistakes.
[00:49:15] Gillian: And in a way it's a mistake that she uses Beethoven so much because she upsets the rock lecturer. You are going to use B word composers like Bar and Beethoven, Brahms. And she does. And so I wanted to show her that she wasn't a flawless leader by any means, but that she had a good heart and she did some good things, but she made the classic mistake probably of being too conservative in terms of musical choices.
[00:49:44] Gillian: In, in music there is, in the music world there, there is this prejudice against different types of music. I've heard discussions where the jazz players will say classical musicians aren't creative. They have the music in front of them. They're just playing someone else's music. But that's unfair because they have to be creative to bring to life brilliant, interesting, colorful performances that people actually want to listen to.
[00:50:09] Gillian: And classical performers say things like jazz musicians, they don't need the pianos tuned. They don't need good spaces to rehearse in because it's rough, or it's rock music and it's rough, and they're just making a whole lot of noise anyway, and making the piano out of tune. Why should we bother? Much, and they can't play their instruments, which is also very unfair, but they probably don't play. For instance I studied classical guitar. They don't play, rocky musicians don't play the classical guitar. Like Segovia or John Williams would play the classical guitar, but by heavens they can certainly get around the pla the like prince, I mean in his my guitar gently weeps what the most brilliant solo.
[00:50:51] Gillian: Interlude, improvisational, so in the world in that, but he is not playing it like a classical guitarist, but there are these prejudices. And these roadblocks. And I do remember myself when I first worked at the VCA that once a classical musician walked out of a room because a jazz musician walked in.
[00:51:10] Gillian: It's a very long time ago, but I think that I wanted to demonstrate that in the book because the rock musician, although he's got lots of chips on his shoulders and. He's flawed. He has every right to want to air condition spaces and instruments in tune and not have vermin running down the corridors just because his discipline happens to be rock.
[00:51:33] Gillian: So as you can tell, that's a bee in my bonnet which I, I don't like. And so I was poking fun in a way at the classical world by having this character produce a rock and classical festival, which probably wouldn't happen.
[00:51:48] Laura: , no, probably won't, but I love that idea and I find it so interesting because although that's a music, problem. Problem if you like that in fighting. Yeah. It's the same thing in literature and of course, possibly, in other industries that I don't of.
[00:52:07] Gillian: Yeah. Yes.
[00:52:08] Laura: This one's more important than that one. Literature's more important than science fiction. Yeah. And we do it ourselves a disservice with that infighting as opposed to promoting whatever.
[00:52:22] Laura: Art or professionals? Yes. Yeah. The,
[00:52:24] Gillian: it probably attracts more money and support Yes. For the discipline as a whole. Yes. Rather than the powers that be thinking, okay, we can give money for the classical stream, but we don't need to for rock or jazz or Yes. World media. Yeah.
[00:52:39] Laura: What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you'd started writing big music?
[00:52:44] Gillian: Okay. I just began, I just began to write without much forethought, but I'm halfway through another book and I have been more strategic in this book, which I'm writing also a novel.
[00:52:58] Gillian: And this has both of my loves, music and wildlife and animals in it. And they're both equal partners, if you like. But I've been more thoughtful about summarizing the story so that there is a structure which can be changed, but there is something there. So the bare bones of the chapters have been worked out, and I may.
[00:53:19] Gillian: Eradicate several of the chapters and several of the characters, but the characters are there. I've written a sort of glossary of the characters that are the main characters, what they're like, what their hair color is, so that I don't have to address so many issues of continuity. As I did in big music, I'm lucky to be married to someone who studied literature and creative writing at Sydney University, and he was very good on continuity issues.
[00:53:47] Gillian: And so now I'm much more careful of that. I think I'd always be much more careful about having too many characters in book as well. And, I would want to know where the apex, where the actual climax, just as in a piece of, you, you're building to a climax and then it breaks away from that to something else.
[00:54:08] Gillian: I'd want to know where the actual climax is in the book. Interestingly next weekend I'm in the Sunshine Coast Literary Festival. The topic of the panel I'm in is writing prose and music and. One of the ways which consciously, which Carolyn Martin is from Hawkeye pointed out, I was using music without realizing it, that each chapter ended in a cadence.
[00:54:35] Gillian: Okay. So the music ended in a perfect cadence, or it might end on a cliffhanger, but often it was more of a pla or a perfect cadence where the chapter is actually resolved. Yes. So she pointed out to me. That I needed more irregular endings so that the person would want to read on. And I found that very interesting to me because that's certainly the case in any musical exercise in a performance or in even in teaching somebody music, that there is this thing where you're gonna have a opposed moment.
[00:55:09] Gillian: And I think I was holding up the story. So you learn as you go and I'm always keen to. I listen to other people, particularly on podcasts and Zoom meetings. Cuts out travel at the time involved in travel, and I find them always very stimulating, even if I only learn one thing. And the other thing is that I've learned is not to write the same chapter a hundred times.
[00:55:37] Gillian: I think I must have written the first chapter of Elvis and me maybe 50 times. I don't do that now. I realize. That you have to move on and not worry about it, we'll come back to it at a later stage. So I have learned a lot of things along the way and and as I say, I am always keen to learn from other people.
[00:55:57] Gillian: So I do talk to other authors. I think, probably earlier on with the next novel that I'm writing I've written 50,000 words, but much earlier on than the complete and manuscript. I will ask other people to read it. Okay. And give me feedback at an earlier stage, because you're a long way down the track when you believe that you've got a viable manuscript, which you may not have across.
[00:56:21] Gillian: Yes. So there are lots of things like that I've learned.
[00:56:26] Laura: Okay. Those are all actually very good tips for anyone who's starting out on their writing journey. Yes. Because I was going to ask you what your advice would be for aspiring. Writers and I think all those things you've pointed out are excellent tips.
[00:56:43] Laura: Is there anything else you'd add to that?
[00:56:45] Gillian: Absolutely. For many years I was the victim of procrastination, as you can tell, because I only began to write when I was 60. And you can't be a writer if you don't write. . And so if I'm encouraging other writers and they say, I want to be a writer, and they say they're not good or they're not smart enough, or whatever, I just say, what did you write today?
[00:57:05] Gillian: I. Because even if it's a sentence, even if it's a paragraph, even if it's a page, you need to keep that writing muscle going, just as I need to keep my fingers going if I wanna be able to play the piano. And the more you write, the longer you write, the more. It flows without being too hyper aware of what you are doing.
[00:57:26] Gillian: I know it is good to tap into a flow. Musicians talk about being in a flow, and I think it's the same with writing, but the first thing is to write. If you don't write, you can't improve.
[00:57:38] Laura: If you've got a page,
[00:57:38] Gillian: you can edit it. Yes. If you've got nothing, there's nothing to be done, and so I think that's the most important thing that I would pass on to anyone. And the other thing is I'm a flawed character, but by heavens I'd have to give myself a prize for never giving up. So I keep going and I might get upset for half an hour, or maybe I'll sleep and I'll be despondent next morning I'm up again and I'll think, I'll find another way.
[00:58:05] Gillian: I'll find a different way. That's what I do. And I think that's what you have to do because it's a very tough industry and it's an uncommunicative industry, which I think is regrettable. You very rarely get feedback. I think you did ask me in one of the questions, what has been a, one of the greatest joys I've had in publishing this book, and I think, for a long time.
[00:58:32] Gillian: Even after the book was published and I saw the physical copies, it was a product, it was a thing, and I'd lost contact with it and it was out there. It was something other than me. And to hear professional musicians actually, which surprised me quite. Frankly many professional musicians have said that they've read it very quickly and they absolutely loved it because I've captured the reality of life in a training institution for emerging artists.
[00:59:00] Gillian: But also people who have never studied music or know anything about it have said that they loved it. So I think, I'm sure I'll get negative feedback too, but. Luckily so far it's only been officially released a few days. I've had very positive feedback, which makes it alive. It makes it seem like a living thing beyond what I did.
[00:59:21] Gillian: It seems to have a life of its own, and people read stories into it, which I never knew. We're there. So that's been something wonderful for me, I think. Yes. That connection with your readers. Yes. I think that's very true. No two readers interpret a book exactly the same way.
[00:59:39] Laura: And so it's one of those things that makes it, a truly creative communicating, connecting. Of match, much as you would say the same for the visual arts, you would say the same for music. Yeah. That's why they're all so important to us.
[00:59:56] Gillian: I do think, people often say to me, you've got a grand piano in your living room and you've got a whole wall of music books, and they feel betrayed.
[01:00:04] Gillian: I think that I'm not on a stage performing. I consider myself to be a musician and I often play the piano, but my. My performance now I think, is through writing, which suits my character much better than music because the performance, it doesn't happen in the immediate. Moment, which is terrifying for someone in my disposition.
[01:00:27] Gillian: It didn't when I was younger, but it terrifies me now. But to know that the performance begins when somebody reads it and I'm not actually doing it. I'm safe. I don't have to feel nervous. My knees don't knock. And if there's something wrong, and it may be in another, it can be edited out. But in the moment when somebody walks on a stage and performs.
[01:00:50] Gillian: You stand and deliver whatever happens, that's a performance and it's gone. Even if it's brilliant, it's gone the moment you walk off. So I like the fact there's a permanence in writing. Yes. And I think it actually I love music and I always have music running in my head and I love to go to concerts and I love to play the piano, but writing just suits my particular, a variety of performance better.
[01:01:16] Laura: I think that's lovely to hear and I'm always surprised by how upset people can get if Julia Cameron, who wrote The Artist's Way likened it to a group of blind people touching an elephant and being asked to describe something they'd never seen before.
[01:01:37] Gillian: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:37] Laura: How the description would vary for the trunk or tus of the tail or leg.
[01:01:43] Laura: And how if you change shape some people get very upset about that. They
[01:01:48] Gillian: do.
[01:01:49] Laura: But we're all entitled to do more than one thing or to express ourselves in more than one way. Yes. So I think you wrote a wonderful example in that way as well. Jillian, we've sadly almost run out of time. Before we close off where can people find you and where can they find your book?
[01:02:10] Gillian: It can be bought online through many outlets through Amazon through Barnes and Nobles, through Niles, through www.hawkeyepublishing.com, but also in mainstream bookstores like Dim X and Collins Harry Hartog. Alternative bookstores I noticed seem to be very keen on it as well.
[01:02:34] Gillian: Probably liking the trope, which is rather different from most books maybe. But most bookstore shops are stocking it.
[01:02:43] Laura: Great.
[01:02:44] Gillian: Yes.
[01:02:44] Laura: And where can we anyone who'd like to follow you or learn a little bit more about you, where can they go?
[01:02:52] Gillian: I have two Facebook pages. One is easy to remember 'cause it's just Jillian Wills.
[01:02:57] Gillian: Facebook, and on that I'll publish the articles I write about concerts and reviews and artists, and also about the book. I also have one which is called Elvis and Me, which I established for the Elvis and Me book, but that also has tales about wildlife and animals and music too, but mainly animals.
[01:03:17] Gillian: On Jillian Wills words, music on Instagram, you can message me there. And there are lots of pictures demonstrating my activities as a writer and with this particular book and my life in general.
[01:03:35] Laura: That sounds wonderful. All right, that, that gives our readers. Lots of opportunities to find you. Thank you very much.
[01:03:42] Laura: It's been such an interesting talk to hear about your life as both a musician and a writer and the way they've come together at this stage in your life. And I look forward to reading the new book and seeing what that's about.
[01:04:00] Gillian: Thank you very much, and it's been a pleasure talking to you too.
O'Connor, congratulations on the first of perhaps many Christmas novels.