From Dreams to Reality: Sandy Barker's Journey in Publishing
“But the writing community that was mostly through Twitter at the time was just saying just keep writing. Even if you’re pitching, keep writing. Because when you go to a publisher, you wanna say here’s the book I’m pitching you, but I’ve already written the follow up, or I’ve already written another book.”
Buy SOMEONE LIKE YOU
🎙️ Join us for a fascinating chat with Sandy Barker, an Australian author known for her travel-inspired romance and rom-com novels. With 12 books under her belt, Sandy shares insights into navigating the publishing industry, the importance of determination and resilience, as well as tips on keeping the joy of writing alive. We discuss her latest books, writing schedules, the balance of travel and writing, and her unique approach to story planning. Plus, discover special content for Writes4Women Substack subscribers! 🎧📚
🎧👉 https://pod.link/1275851144
00:00 Introduction and Chat with Sandy Barker
01:32 Writing Prompts and Free Writing
04:51 Listener Survey and Upcoming Retreats
06:36 Sandy Barker's Writing Journey
09:35 The Path to Publication
22:56 Navigating the Publishing World
24:53 Transitioning Between Publishers
25:40 Joining Bold Wood and New Projects
26:49 The Ever After Agency Series
28:01 The Role of a Supportive Agent
31:05 Balancing Travel and Writing
33:19 Writing Process and Deadlines
37:56 Upcoming Projects and Future Plans
40:00 Latest Releases and Christmas Anthology
45:16 Connecting with Readers and Social Media
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave a rating and review or consider subscribing to our Substack.
Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
[00:00:00] Pamela: Hello, and welcome to another episode of rights for women. It is Tuesday, November 19 as I'm recording this. And I've just had a fantastic chat with Sandy Barker. Now, Sandy is an Australian author who is currently traveling the world. She's a big traveler. Some of her books are focused on her travels. She writes romance.
[00:00:21] Pamela: Rom-com. Across a couple of genres. She's a great series writer. She has 12 going on 13 books out and she is a fantastic person. To talk to about navigating the publishing industry. Having determination and resilience all the kind of characteristics that you need to make it in this publishing business as a successful author and also about. Continuing to cultivate the joy of writing.
[00:00:49] Pamela: So Sandy and I have just had a fantastic chat about that. We've also done a little bit of a chat for the rights for women sub stack subscribers. That's a little bit of paid for the paid subscribers. So there's an extra bonus at the end. And you'll find that if you're accessing this via the sub-state newsletter, there's always a section at the bottom, which is for paid subscribers.
[00:01:08] Pamela: And that's where you'll find. The additional video. So be sure to fund that there. And if you would like to have access to the little bit of extra, it's usually about 10 or 15 minutes extra and ask some kind of probing questions about writing of my guests. That are going out to the paid sub-sect subscribers. Shout out again to anybody who is following along on sub stack, whether you're a paid or free subscriber. And just something I wanted to mention is that I have been putting up prompts not every day because just, life, I did intend to do prompts every day during November, but that just hasn't happened.
[00:01:43] Pamela: But most days of the week I'm doing writing prompts and I'm doing those myself to just stay in touch with my writing self to get the creative juices flowing. And one of the things I just wanted to mention quickly, that's really important about these kinds of writing prompts is to treat them as what's called a free write. So these can be great things to do.
[00:02:02] Pamela: If you're feeling a little bit stuck on your longer project or larger project, if you're in between projects and you just want to keep up your writing your creativity and tap into your writing skills, or if you just want to do something a little bit different. Also a great thing to do if you're suffering a little bit from any kind of block or imposter syndrome, because the idea with a free write is that you basically set a timer. You start with some kind of writing prompt.
[00:02:29] Pamela: So whether that is a line from a book as it is, today's prompt on Tuesday, November 19. It can be just sitting in a place and literally writing down what feel, think he's smell. Using your senses, that can be so many different types of writing prompts. So you start with a particular word or phrase and you just go, you don't think about, oh, what should I write?
[00:02:53] Pamela: What's the best, first sentence I need to nail the opening. You don't need to do that. You just need to write. So it's all about pushing ourselves to access the subconscious part of our brain, where all the gold is stored. So all those memories, associations, images, feelings, ideas that we can't often access when we're thinking hard about it, because they are stored in this kind of subconscious part of our brain.
[00:03:18] Pamela: If we switch off all the, should've, could've, would've. All those things that we should do. And just. Create the right conditions to access that. So set a timer. Without consciously thinking. Don't edit anything. Don't sensor, just write down whatever comes to you.
[00:03:36] Pamela: It could be rubbish. It could be gobbledygook. It could be a repetition of what you've already said. It doesn't matter. Just let the words flow. And what you'll find is that after 20 minutes or so, and that's the kind of optimal time to do as a minimum, but after 20 minutes or so you get into the zone, but. You'll find that your writing, if you read it back afterwards, you never reread during that process.
[00:03:58] Pamela: But if you read it back afterwards, there will probably be some surprising things there because. Once you get into that flow state or into that writing zone, you never know what surprises can come out. You might use some of those things later. You might use the whole thing as the basis for something you might never use it again.
[00:04:15] Pamela: But in doing these kinds of exercises, you're exercising your writing muscle, and that's really important to keep doing. So if you'd like to join us I'm putting up those prompts on sub stack. I do keep forgetting to put them on Instagram, but I will do that there as well. You don't have to pay on sub-state, but great.
[00:04:34] Pamela: If you do thank you. If you are you will get more bonuses if you do. But you can also just come along as a free subscriber and get access to those daily writing prompts. And they're all there in the notes or the chat where you can access them, the kind of archive of those. So that's the main thing I wanted to talk about this week.
[00:04:51] Pamela: There is the listener survey that's out. If you have, if you are a regular listener, we would love to get your feedback on the podcast. Please take a few minutes to complete that survey. The link is in the show notes. The link is always in the weekly newsletter that goes out on subs tech. It's also on the rights for women websites.
[00:05:06] Pamela: So if you can please pop over and do that in the very, very near future, we would really appreciate it. Cause we want to work on. How we can bring rights to women for you in the best way. In 2025.
[00:05:20] Pamela: A couple of other things. I am going to have, hopefully by this time next week, the details for my next chapter, writing retreat will be up on the website. Pamela cook.com.edu. But you can pop on there now and put an expression of interest. The retreat is going to be April 10 to 13, encouraging in new south Wales. So if you are interested in that, pop yourself on the expressions of interest form Pamela cook.com.edu/courses. And you will get first notification about that because there's only 12 places and they filled up really quickly this year.
[00:05:54] Pamela: I may be having a secondary tree, which has just to come along and write one.
[00:05:58] Pamela: I'm still in the process of trying to find a venue for that. So I'll keep you posted on that. And my turnip, the tension course is on sale at the moment still because I haven't got around to doing anything else with it, but it's at $199 for eight modules over probably 30 hours worth of work there. If you want to really dive deep into all the exercises. If you don't have to spend that long on it each week.
[00:06:20] Pamela: You can do it in your own time. You have lifetime access. So it's actually a really good buy for $199. For those eight modules, basically on how to write a novel. So pop over to Pamela cook.com.edu/courses. And you'll find that there. Now onto today's guest. Let me tell you about Sandy Barker. Sandy is a writer, traveler and hopeful, romantic. And she's currently on a one-year sabbatical with her partner, Ben traveling, writing, and living across the world.
[00:06:51] Pamela: We talk about that in the episode. As a traveler, Sandy loves exploring new places, outdoor adventures and eating and drinking like a local. And many of her travel adventures have had found homes in her novels. And in fact, she has a whole series on destinations that she has visited. And fictionalized her first novel one summer in center.
[00:07:11] Pamela: Rainy was there. A man is a romantic comedy set in Greece and inspired by her real life. Love story. It was published in 2019 by one more chapter Harper Collins. Sparking the five book holiday romance series. Also with one more chapter Sandy's Christmas romance series celebrating her favorite time of year. And the dating game, a standalone romcom, sit in the world of reality TV. Sandy's new five book rom com series is called. The ever after agency series. It's about a bespoke matchmaking agency based in London with a brilliant cast of characters and settings around the world. Books 1, 2, 3. Around now, and book four, in fact is also out now someone like you. Came out on November 12. In time for Christmas.
[00:07:58] Pamela: And Sandy has also in the 12 tropes of Christmas anthology again, which we chat about in this episode. And I've spoken to Anna Fox cook about that in a previous episode. Facade. Sandy is prolific author whose path to publication and writing journey is a lesson in determination. Self-belief and the absolute joy of writing. Join Sandy and I now on the rights for women convey couch, pop on your headphones, put on your walking shoes, grab a coffee or tea, whatever it is you do when you listen to or watch rights for women on the YouTube channel. And enjoy.
[00:08:31] Sandy: I've just looked at my weather app and it says two degrees overnight and light rain or snow.
[00:08:39] Pamela: Woo hoo. So tell us where you
[00:08:40] Sandy: are,
[00:08:41] Pamela: Sandy.
[00:08:42] Sandy: So I, right now I'm on Whidby Island, which is in Puget Sound, just off the coast of Seattle.
[00:08:48] Sandy: And was working away today and the sun was just streaming through the windows. And so I said to my partner, let's take a break. Let's go for a walk. And we did. And we stepped outside and it was freezing. It was literally. Five degrees. My face hurt when we got back, but, we saw deer.
[00:09:07] Sandy: 'cause there's deer wandering around the neighborhood and the sun was shining and it was a nice brain break. But yeah, it's, it be chilly. It's very chilly. It's been very chilly.
[00:09:15] Pamela: Sandy Barker, thank you so much for joining me on the Rights for Women Convo Couch. It's amazing to have you here.
[00:09:22] Pamela: You're on the other side of the world, on an island of Seattle, which we are going to talk about your travels as part of the course of the interview. So welcome and I wanted to start by asking you,
[00:09:35]
[00:09:35] Pamela: can you remember the moment that you first thought, I want to be a writer, or I really want to write?
[00:09:42] Pamela: Can you recall that moment or that period in your life?
[00:09:46] Sandy: It's really interesting actually because I've been traditionally published now for five and a half years, and as we're traveling, I'm, we're in the US at the moment, as you said, just off the coast of Seattle. And I'm catching up with people that I've known for 15 years, and so many of them are saying to me, you always said you wanted to be an author.
[00:10:05] Sandy: And my sister said to me, you always talked about being an author. And I have had old friends and family members saying to me, yes, this has been your lifelong dream. And so I've had all of these people in the last few years telling me. This is something you've always talked about, but quite honestly, I don't recall like specific instances of saying it.
[00:10:26] Sandy: Yeah. And I think it was because I just pushed it to the back. I ended up in a career in education and teaching and I really loved it and I just maybe it was niggling in the background, but it didn't really, there wasn't a moment where it was like, aha, I'm going to be an author.
[00:10:43] Sandy: I always loved reading and writing when I was a kid. I had those notebooks full of stories that I wrote and I read Voraciously. But I don't remember a particular moment, but I do remember. A moment when I had pretty much given up. I had been working on a manuscript. I had early interest from an agent in Australia called Brian Cook.
[00:11:05] Sandy: He was just lovely, signed me for a year and he just couldn't sell my book. And so I just stuck it in the drawer and, forgot about the dream. And we went to see the film Lala Land.
[00:11:17] Sandy (2): Oh yeah.
[00:11:17] Sandy: Which, I actually blog about it. I think the title blog post was Lala Land. Made me do it.
[00:11:22] Sandy: And we're watching this film and it was so powerful. I was sobbing all the way home on the tram. And poor Ben, I'm just like, I just need to be, I just need to be alone. And it just made me realize that no one was gonna knock on my door and say hi. Do you have an unpublished manuscript sitting in a drawer somewhere?
[00:11:43] Sandy: I'd like to see it. And that I had to back myself, because when I was working on that book from 20 13, 20 14 onwards for, two or three years I, that dream was reignited. It was like, I definitely want to be an author. Like I, I can see this as my full-time job. But, I'd given up on, I'd given up on my dream and I hadn't even really tried.
[00:12:07] Sandy: So it just, that really was a formative moment for me. It just really sparked that passion, reignited that passion. And the, and it made me realize, if you're going to do this, you need to be tenacious. , you need to keep working on your craft. You need to keep honing that manuscript and you need to get it out there.
[00:12:27] Sandy: Yeah, I do think that it was a long time. I think about, I think back to my teen years and how much I was writing and had all these ideas for book series. 'cause I was a ver again, still a voracious reader. I was reading Sweet Valley High and all the, sweet Dreams books and and I think back even to my twenties and thirties and just had ideas for stuff.
[00:12:45] Sandy: But I just kept pushing it to the background, pushing it to the background, and my first book wasn't published until I was 50.
[00:12:51] Pamela: Wow. That's so inspiring. Yeah. There's a lot to unpack there. There is, there it is amazing. Yeah. I love these stories. It's I think when we talk about these things, it's so important for aspiring and emerging authors or people who have just even started writing to hear these stories because, there's, look, there's a few people out there who have had kind of the magical overnight success, but for most of us it's a long, hard, continual slog, isn't it?
[00:13:20] Sandy: It is. It is. And my first book I did end up self-publishing it and I self-published my second book. And then was pitching to publishing houses. Not knowing you weren't supposed to do that. I had so many people telling me after the fact, after I got a book deal, you can't pitch. A self-published book.
[00:13:37] Sandy: And I said I just did. So you can, um, between sitting down to write that story for the very first time and getting it done while working full time and then self-publishing and then it being published by Harper Collins, that was six years. I spent six years with that one book.
[00:13:56] Sandy: I was sick of it by the Yeah, I bet. I know the edits came across and I was actually quite relieved to see so much markup. I'm like, this is gonna be a completely different version of this book, which is great. And I worked really well with my first editor. But yeah, it is it is it's not always an overnight thing and.
[00:14:15] Sandy: I have good friends with Jenna Lo Bianco and she talks about something like 150 rejections. Yeah. And I didn't have as many, once I started querying, I had probably upward around 50 rejections, but I had some really harsh ones. This book isn't fit for publication. And that came about a week before I got the email that started.
[00:14:37] Sandy: I get this email and it starts, dear Sandy, we're so sorry. And I was like, oh gosh, another rejection, right? That we've taken so long to get back to you, but we love your book and we want to publish it. And I was like, I was just I know this isn't, this is an audio media, Sandy, you can't just throw your hands up and No, that's okay.
[00:14:55] Sandy: It's on video as well. I was just so taken aback because I'd had this huge blow of. we're not gonna publish this book 'cause it's not fit for publication to the, within the same week having someone say, we love this book. That's a testament to my tenacity.
[00:15:10] Sandy: Yes. But of course it's that luck factor that does play in. It's not all luck, most of it's grit, most of it's hard work and sitting down doing the work. But the luck factor of my book, landing on that person's desk, the right time for them where it just resonated for them. And they were like, this is brilliant.
[00:15:27] Sandy: We have to publish this book. So of course there is that element of luck, but if you don't get your book on people's desks, the luck won't come. Like it won't, you're not taking advantage of the opportunities if you're not creating them. Yeah, it is, people say to me, oh, you're so lucky.
[00:15:43] Sandy: And I'm like, I'm fortunate. I don't consider myself lucky. I feel like I'm fortunate. I'm fortunate to have been raised by parents who, reminded me of love of reading. I'm fortunate to have an education and be in a place where I can speak freely. And those are all the things, those are all the fortunes of my life, and they've all come this is confluence of factors that have led to where I am now, but I do have to give myself props for just sitting down and doing the work.
[00:16:11] Sandy: Particularly as until February this year I was working, so I was putting publishing books and working. Wow.
[00:16:17] Sandy (2): Yeah.
[00:16:18] Pamela: I know. It's a hard slog. It is a hard slog. And, just what you were saying about getting those two emails within a few days of each other, it also shows you Yeah, I totally agree.
[00:16:28] Pamela: I think the most important is the grit and the determination and the just determination to keep going regardless.
[00:16:34] Sandy (2): Yep.
[00:16:35] Pamela: And. Also there is an element of lack of fortune, as you say. Fortune. Yeah. Yeah. But also the subjectivity of reading. Like what one reader thinks is rubbish. Another reader can think, oh my God, this is fantastic.
[00:16:48] Pamela: I can't put it down. And this is so important for everybody to remember that whether it's just to an average, reader who walks into a bookshop and buys a book, or whether it's an agent or a publisher, it's still a subjective process. Some publishers are gonna love your work, others are not gonna like it at all.
[00:17:03] Pamela: And that's just right part of that whole reading process, isn't it?
[00:17:07] Sandy: It absolutely is. And I was speaking to a fellow author over here. He writes children's books and For ya. But he said, we were, I was talking about a side project that I'm working on and I said, oh, I got so close to this publisher.
[00:17:20] Sandy: I had the meeting and I did the rewrites. And they were just loving it and took him three months to say no. And he goes, that wasn't your publisher. He says, you want the publisher that says, oh my gosh, this is, yes I need to publish this book. He said, that wasn't gonna be your publisher if it took them that long to say no.
[00:17:39] Sandy: Even if they were considering it the whole time, they would've leapt on it if they were your publisher. And I just said I like that. It's just you're right. That's not the right publisher for me. If they don't see in. This piece, what I see in it, what it can be. And I wanna be in a publishing home that loves my books and wants me to tell my stories and also wants to be a partner for me.
[00:18:01] Sandy: And I've been so fortunate. I've worked with one more chapter, which is part of Harper Collins. I had three different editors there. And now I work with Emily Hour at Baldwin books. And we know, we met the other day and we were just catching up about the edits for this current book.
[00:18:16] Sandy: And it, this is the book in the series that both of us had been wanting to get to. I could. It's, it's a kind of a revenge romcom. It's super fun. And she was just very complimentary about how I executed it. She was really, she said, I knew it was gonna be tricky and you nailed it, which is so nice to hear from your editor.
[00:18:33] Sandy: But then she's I think we could do this and I think we can do that. So we're just going through her feedback of, and I'm instructional edits at the moment and it was such a good thing. And then we've started talking about what am I writing next? Because I've just signed another five book contract with them.
[00:18:46] Sandy: And I'm like, which of these titles do you think is going to be, land? And I said, I'm thinking this one which is a parent trap romcom about a young widow and her mother-in-Law and her daughter get it colluding to get her matched up because it's time now, dad died a few years ago and, and she was like, oh yes. And I said, it's gonna be coming out in November, so it could be cozy and Christmasy. And we are getting really excited about it because we are partners. Yeah. She, she is guiding this my writing process. She's guiding, the editing and then on the call is my agent.
[00:19:19] Sandy: And, I just feel like I've got this supportive team around me. And that's another good fortune is just landing with the right people to steward my career. I got off that meeting and I, it was only half an hour and I just felt like I was walking on clouds.
[00:19:32] Sandy: I'm like, gosh, I love my job.
[00:19:37] Pamela: I can feel your passion and enthusiasm coming through the screen. It's fantastic. I love it. Sandy. So can I just go back a little bit, that first book that you you said you self-published it and you sold that particular book that had already been self-published to Harper Collins.
[00:19:51] Pamela: So it is possible people, if you're listening. Yep. Had you written other books prior to that? Was that kind of the first book you'd written or that, that was a few down the track.
[00:20:00] Sandy: I have an unfinished book that we'll never see the light of day. I was working on something, it was a, I would say fictionalization of kind of real life story for me.
[00:20:11] Sandy: 'cause I had this year that I worked as a tiki tour manager in the nineties in out of London. And it was off the back of this horrible breakup in in, I broke up with my five year boyfriend in Paris, like just the worst place to break up. Oh, by the way, I'm
[00:20:27] Pamela: reading that book now. Night that night in Paris.
[00:20:29] Pamela: Oh, that night in Paris. Currently reading
[00:20:31] Sandy: it. So nice to know. That's based on a real story. So I had written, I'd written this as an autobiography and then I was doing the fictionalization of it. But that was what I actually pitched to Brian Cook. And he came back to me and he said, look, this is not your first book.
[00:20:48] Sandy: I wasn't even finished, but I just was like, I wanted move back to Australia. I wanted to get an agent. He said, this isn't your first book. He says, you've got multiple timelines going on. You've got this, it's really emotional. It's really this. You're not Leanne Morty. Go away and write a single linear narrative that just, starts and finishes.
[00:21:06] Sandy: And I was like, okay. So I went home and I was like, what? What do I write? And my partner Ben says our story's kind of an interesting story. We met. While traveling. He's an American. He was traveling from Minnesota. I was traveling from Sydney, we're in Greece. We met on a pier, we got on a sailing trip together and we fell in love over a week and a half, sailing around with five other people.
[00:21:30] Sandy: I'm like, cool. Alright, that's a good starting point. I'll start there. So I did. But then that book that sat in the drawer and it is still there on purpose. I did mine it, I did mine, parts of it for that night in Paris. Okay. That sat on a bus tour around Europe. It's contemporary though.
[00:21:49] Sandy: And so I had already all of that in my head. A lot of the where they went and the things that they did and what have you. I'm like, that's all there. And then I wrote that breakup that I had into that story. Yeah. For that character. Yeah. And it was. It was great to be able to use that content.
[00:22:09] Sandy: It didn't go to waste. Nothing goes to waste really. Even stuff that we don't end up with because it's all teaching us the craft. It's all refining our work. But yeah, I look at it back now and I started writing it 25 years ago. And I look back at it and I have all the handwritten version 'cause I hand wrote it while I was teaching.
[00:22:28] Sandy: I'd be on, I'd be on recess yard duty and I'd be there writing my book. I, it's just so angsty. It's I can't believe I was like 30, 30 years old writing it because I just like reads like a teenager's diary. That's never gonna see the light of day.
[00:22:43] Sandy: So once I, in Santorini, the book that became one Summer in Santorini is my first full book that I finished. And then that night in Paris, which came out second was actually the third book I wrote. So I had written a follow up to one summer in Santorini, and my publisher was like, eh, we don't wanna do a sequel right away.
[00:23:03] Sandy: What else you got? And by the time I signed with them, I already had the three manuscripts out. So I, that was really good because it moved things along pretty quickly. And then once they saw the success of Santorini, they were like, okay, what else you got? And I'm like, here's the follow up to Santorini.
[00:23:19] Sandy: They're like, yes, good. What else? And I'm like, I have this idea for a Christmas book. Yes, brilliant, let's do it. So it was just that was also something that, that was good advice that I was getting from the writing community in 20 18. Because I, we were on, Ben and I were on sabbatical, we were traveling around the world living in different places.
[00:23:38] Sandy: I was writing books and doing some contract work. But the writing community that was mostly through Twitter at the time was just saying just keep writing. Even if you're pitching, keep writing. Because when you go to a publisher, you wanna say here's the book I'm pitching you, but I've already written the follow up, or I've already written another book.
[00:23:58] Sandy: So that they know that you are not just a one time wonder, that you actually have it in you to put out more work.
[00:24:06] Sandy (2): Yeah.
[00:24:06] Sandy: Because once you sign, it happens so quickly. And if you've spent six years working on book one, like I did. It can't take you another six years to do book two, because of course the publisher's gonna be like hello?
[00:24:18] Sandy: We need to build some momentum here for your readers. So it actually worked in my paper that I had three manuscripts ready to go once I signed the deal.
[00:24:26] Pamela: That's great advice too. And like you, I spent. Seven years. I think working on my first novel, which is currently in a draw, I think it will always be in a draw.
[00:24:35] Pamela: It's a different kind of genre to what I'm writing, ended up writing. It wasn't my proper voice, but I learned a lot from it. Yeah. And me too, Sandy, you've dabbled in self-publishing. You've been with big tread publishers. After you had those books published with Harper Collins, did you then later on, do any further self-publishing?
[00:24:53] Pamela: Or you've moved on to, you're with Bold Wood now, how, what kind of happened in the interim between Harper Collins and Bold wood for you?
[00:25:01] Sandy: Yeah Harper Collins, as I said, I had three editors over eight books. I finished the Holi Holiday Romance series. I did a follow up to the Christmas swap.
[00:25:10] Sandy: I'd done a, standalone as well. So I'd written out my contracts for the eight books and my agent was like what next? Where do you wanna, where do you wanna be? What do you wanna be doing? And I felt like I, I had my eye, I was looking over the fence. I was like, oh, look at those Baldwin people.
[00:25:30] Sandy: They look interesting. They're doing great stuff. And I said, I wanna go over there. I wanna see what they're doing. I wanna see, because they were just doing it so well and they are doing it so well. Baldwin's only five.
[00:25:42] Sandy: It's a UK indie publisher. And Amanda Ridout, who is the head of Baldwin, the founder of Baldwin she's worked.
[00:25:49] Sandy: Across the industry at all the big fives. And she started her own publishing house with a few select people. And now there's something like 150 authors in five years. They're going to put out 400 titles next year. Wow. And they've sold something. Like 20 million copies in five years.
[00:26:10] Sandy: So I'm like looking over going, I want to see what they're doing. And they had just lured Emily Yow, who her first book was, the Flat Share, that was her first book as an editor. They had just lured her onto the team and I'm like, Ooh, I wanna work with Emily Yow. And so we pitched to them and they did wait until Emily got her feet under the desk.
[00:26:33] Sandy: So she'd been there a couple of months and we set up a meeting and she and I clicked right away. She's so lovely. It's always nice hearing that someone enjoys your writing, but she's Sandy, you're so funny. I was laughing on the bus. Everyone's looking at me and I'm like, oh, I love her already.
[00:26:49] Sandy: So we we had pitched them the ever after agency series. And that was born from the fact that I had all of these ideas for standalone romcoms, but of course, series at the time, particularly, two, three years ago, series were huge. And so my agent and I were just like, how can we shape these into that?
[00:27:09] Sandy: They might belong to the same universe. And I was thinking, are they all connected by the same city? Is this a friendship group? These are things that you know, people are familiar with. And at the time, because we were all in lockdown in Melbourne, I was I was just binging call my agent. Oh yeah.
[00:27:28] Pamela: Yeah. French I haven't, but I've heard of it. Yeah.
[00:27:31] Sandy: Oh, highly recommended. And then I binged 10%, which is the British version with similar characters. And I'm like. It's an agency, it's a matchmaking agency and every book is a different love story, but the Matchmaker is in every book and Oh, perfect.
[00:27:48] Sandy: Yeah. She becomes the kind, she becomes the reader. She's has, she's privy to more information than the main characters are.
[00:27:54] Sandy: Yeah, we pitch them that and they were like. Yep, let's go. So that's been f fantastic. Yeah. Yep.
[00:28:00] Pamela: So exciting. And have you had the same agent all along?
[00:28:03] Pamela: I know you had Brian Cook, but have you had the same agent since after Brian?
[00:28:08] Sandy: Yeah. So Brian, so lovely and so supportive and I honestly, I credit him with just giving me the nudge that I needed. We parted ways, amicably, it was just like after a year he couldn't sell the book and he said, I'm so sorry.
[00:28:18] Sandy: I dunno what to do. I love this book. And we're like, okay, no problem. So I think we parted ways in 2015 and then . I was looking for a new agent and I had my eye on Lena Langley. I had participated in a Twitter chat with her and I'd been following her on socials and I just was like, gosh, she just gets it.
[00:28:37] Sandy: And I'd queried her and nothing. And then once I got there. Offer from Harper Collins. I was cheeky, but really, this is where you gotta be. And I went back to the sent email, I added to the same thread. I changed the subject line to all caps, publication offer from Harper Collins, hi Lena.
[00:28:55] Sandy: Just letting you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'd really like to talk to you about this offer. And she got back to me within 24 hours and she said, look, I have about 700 queries in my inbox right now. She says, very clever to just bump it to the top. Let me read the book. So she read it in like a day and she came back to me, she says, I'm absolutely representing you.
[00:29:16] Sandy: They'd offered a one book deal. She got me a two book deal. Fantastic. And then she got me subsequent deals, and she's she's a Swedish gal who's married to a Scott, and they live in Edinburgh with their boys. I've now met her in person twice, including this year. And I only met her in person for the first time in 2022, but she'd been my agent for three years.
[00:29:36] Sandy: And she's just, she's extraordinary because. For start. She's my first editor. I always send my manuscripts to her and get her feedback, and she's very astute. And then once we are both happy with it, then I submit. So I always have to my deadlines are always moved up a bit.
[00:29:53] Sandy: They're like, I have to finish like three weeks early so that we can it. And she's just, like she works so hard for me and the times when it has been challenging and there have been times when it's like my editor forgot my book was coming out, so they're going to push it back to the next year.
[00:30:08] Sandy: And she's no. And she handles those sorts of things from and, chasing up royalties and all sorts of things. Not that we've had much, we haven't had anything like that with Harper Collins or with Baldwin, but, we've got, I've got some foreign publications and yeah, she's just she's my advocate.
[00:30:25] Sandy: She's my friend. She's my first editor. She's this one of the stewards of my career, and I literally couldn't have done all of this without her because she she will tell me to put on the brakes. I'm like, I can do four books a year. And she's you are still working. And I'm like, I can do two and a half books a year.
[00:30:44] Sandy: And she goes, that's more like it.
[00:30:48] Pamela: You need someone like that in your corner, don't you? I think it's whether it's an agent or an editor or a really good writing friend publisher, whatever, I think you need that person. That can be the voice of reason sometimes can help you out with things, but having a fabulous agent like that makes life so much easier.
[00:31:05] Pamela: Yeah we've alluded a few times, Sandy, to your traveling life and you are a big traveler. How do you combine your traveling life with your writing, and what's your schedule like, what do your days look like as you're traveling and writing?
[00:31:20] Sandy: Yes. Yeah. 2018 was our first sabbatical as I mentioned, and we did a full year away from Australia. We had to quit my job and we stuck everything in storage. And then we've done that again. So I stopped work in February and then we left Australia in March and we we're in Thailand for a couple months, then we went to Europe and the uk I met so many people from my publishing world, author, friends and UK was just, it was this fabulous work trip where I got to catch up with people who, or meet people for the first time who I'd never met, but I've worked with for years.
[00:31:57] Sandy: And then now we're in North America. My partner's American and so we're driving across the country and just seeing family and friends has been great, but. I, I have deadlines, so yeah I can pretty much write in most situations.
[00:32:15] Sandy: Tried riding in the minivan. No, that's a no go. I get sick, but trains, planes cafes. We had a favorite place in Thailand, which was a little bar on the waterfront that had pink bean bags, and we would just sit there with our dueling laptops, him and his, and her laptops and a jug of beer and just write so sounds idyllic.
[00:32:37] Sandy: It was, I'm not complaining, and just it's nice to be out in nature even when it's hot. It's like nice to be out. Yeah. But I'm very disciplined in that I will write pretty much every day while I'm drafting including Saturdays and Sundays. And there are times when it's oh, we're growing.
[00:32:53] Sandy: We've got footy tickets, so we've got this, or whatever. Or, we're going to this museum or we're driving that day. And those days I'm not riding. So I feel like it, we're striking a really good balance because we're not moving around all the time. We are actually basing ourselves in particular places that we're gonna have a month in Mexico where we have an apartment and we will just be working during the day.
[00:33:14] Sandy: And then in the evenings we'll go and play and then we'll set some days aside for exploring. But I typically will start the writing session by rereading what I wrote the day before. Tweaking as I go and making notes if there's anything that's like a plot point or something, or a characteristic that I need to add to my style guide or a plot point that might impact future scenes.
[00:33:37] Sandy: And then it also helps me get into the kind of the flow of the story and the cadence and the, or, the main characters, internal monologue and all of that. So I'll start writing and I will write a scene. Or even a chapter. So I'd want to write something complete in a day, like in a day's work.
[00:33:56] Sandy: Yeah. And that could, sometimes it pours out of, sometimes it pours out of you and you've written 3000 words in two hours, and sometimes you need to stop and take a break and go for a walk or go for a swim, or have, make some lunch or do the washing or whatever, and then let your brain noodle on what, what's gonna happen next.
[00:34:13] Sandy: Editing is a different thing because it's usually a pretty tight turnaround, so it could be two to three weeks for a structural edit, which can be quite rigorous. I had, the third book in my latest series, I probably rewrote about 50% of it, but I'm working on structurals now for this fifth book, and they're pretty light on.
[00:34:30] Sandy: So I'm moving pretty quickly, but I just. Get up, do my author biz, check socials, check my emails, check my rankings, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Send off anything that anyone's asking for. And then I'm like, head down and I'll take breaks because, otherwise you get headache here and sore and what have you.
[00:34:48] Sandy: Yeah, but I'm just like, head down until and I re we really had to try and plan. Where we are for those times. I'm like, okay, edits are gonna come at the beginning of November. I need to be in the one place at one for one, for a chunk of time. We're staying in a friend's holiday house at the moment, just to have some kind of quiet, not staying with family, not having to be social to social.
[00:35:13] Sandy: It's just yeah, we're both working heads down. Yeah it's, we've worked it out and I'm, I've met all my deadlines while we've been on the road. So you yeah, I actually worked well to, to deadlines. Yeah. I think we need them. Do you?
[00:35:27] Pamela: Oh, definitely. If I haven't got a deadline, it's like, how long's a piece of string?
[00:35:31] Pamela: Yeah. I need that deadline. Yeah.
[00:35:33] Pamela: Are you a planner, Sandy? Do you plan your stories out or that, are you more of a pants. I call myself a planter.
[00:35:39] Sandy: Yeah. In between. Yeah. I always start with a detailed synopsis.
[00:35:42] Sandy: It might be well detailed. Some people's synopsis are like up as long as a book, but I think what my synopsis will be like three to 10 pages and once I've written it, I never really look at it again. 'cause I think it's in there. Yeah. And then I go, then I just go I like where the story can take me.
[00:36:00] Sandy: I really appreciate those people who can do the, their murder board with post-Its, and all of that. But I find for me that is just a little bit too much like work having been a teacher and planning out your teaching. I think of it. I wanna approach it how I approach my teaching, which was we have a teaching program.
[00:36:22] Sandy: But, and I have a lesson plan, but my lesson plan might be really brief. It'd be like, teach dramatic tension to the year seven drama. I know how to do that, so I just get in and just see how it goes with the kids and, respond to them. So I think of it more like that the structure is in place.
[00:36:35] Sandy: Yeah. But then day to day, I have room to play, and I'm often delighted by where the story goes. I'm like, see them better than, what did that happen? Where did that come from? I know that it's just my, my subconscious is way ahead of my conscious mind.
[00:36:53] Sandy: But when my characters do stuff, and you must have experienced this, or I think every author experiences this, and you start typing, you, they're in there and they're doing all this stuff, and you're following them around like a st court stenographer, and then you're like, oh. Woo. Sassy girl.
[00:37:09] Sandy: Okay. Like you just get a bit surprised by your
[00:37:11] Pamela: no, I love that too. I love that you sound like you're quite an ideas girl too, Sandy. Do you find the ideas come to you pretty quickly and, do you have all these ideas floating around that you can't wait to get to, to write?
[00:37:22] Sandy: Oh, I just, I wish there were two of me because yes. , and so many authors experience this with the, the new book going, hello Sandy. And it's just won't leave you alone. You're like, I'm editing the last book. Just shush, yes. I do wish that there was one Sandy that was just, wrapping up the one that I finished and then I could just get a crack on.
[00:37:44] Sandy: There's so much I wanna write. There's so much I wanna write. But what I'm hoping for I think in the next couple of years is getting to the point where I'm writing one to two under contract, and then maybe one for me every year, something different.
[00:37:56] Pamela: So how many books would you be writing a year currently?
[00:37:59] Sandy: While I was working, pretty much, it's it turns out to be like five every two years. Okay. But that's pretty good. It is that night in Paris, for example, I wrote on the last sabbatical and we got to Portugal. I'd written 20,000 words, the book's, 105,000 words. And I wrote the end of the book in three weeks in during nano rmo. Wow. So it just, it was one of those. So I know that I can write at pace and when I was in Thailand this year, I wrote like 60,000 words in five weeks because when the story's in there and you just need to get it out, it's really good.
[00:38:36] Sandy: And I was in the flow and we were in one spot and had a little apartment, little routine. So I'm thinking I could probably increase that pace. Write the contract, write to contract in the next two to three years. 'cause that contract takes me through to the beginning of 20. I have to submit my what are we, 2026.
[00:38:54] Sandy: I have to submit the fifth book on that contract, but I've got other projects that I'm interested in. I've actually teed up like a several month break before I need to start on the next Baldwin book, the co, cozy Romance with the parent trap trope. Okay. Because I started something a couple of years ago that just, again, it was one of these books I just brought out of me and it's a really Aussie book.
[00:39:18] Sandy: So my UK publishers are not really gonna. They're, they'll, I give 'em a cursory look and they'll go, yeah, it's great. Not for us. But it's a book of my heart, so I want to get that finished. I'm hoping by the end of the year, or at least by the time I get back to Australia in end of Jan. And that's, it is a bit of a departure for me, so it'll be different for readers it's a bit more, I would just say contemporary fiction with a little bit deeper exploration of kind of the human condition.
[00:39:47] Pamela: We're gonna get onto a few questions for our Substack paid subscribers. So if anybody out there is listening and you'd like to hear more from Sandy, you can sign up as a paid subscriber on Substack. Very easy if you go over there to write for women on Substack.
[00:40:00] Pamela: But before we do that, Sandy your latest release, someone like you. Is are friends to Lovers Romance. Yeah. Tell us a bit about that, and then also about the Christmas anthology that you are part of.
[00:40:13] Sandy: Oh, yes. I'd love to talk about both of those. So someone like you, it's fourth book in the Holiday Romance Oh, sorry.
[00:40:19] Sandy: In the Ever After Agency series. Let's do that again.
[00:40:23] Pamela: End that. Yep, that's fine. That'll go.
[00:40:26] Sandy: So someone like You is the fourth book in the ever after agency series, and it's about Gabby. Now, she's an American expat who lives in London, and she's one of a trio of best friends and her, one of her besties Freya actually works with Poppy, the Matchmaker in the rest of the series.
[00:40:46] Sandy: And their other friend is called Raf. And Rafti is a diehard romantic, and he was about to propose to his girlfriend when she dumps him by text. And so Frayer the matchmaker says. Let me match you, finally let me match you. And so Gabby gets embroiled in this plot to match raf and setting up these meet Cutes and what have you.
[00:41:07] Sandy: And along the way she realizes that she actually has feelings for him. Now I made her an expat American because I wanted to send Gabby and Raf back home for the holidays. So she takes him back to Seattle for Christmas with her Madcap family. And I wanted to write Seattle because I lived here for four years.
[00:41:28] Sandy: It's a great city. It's one of those cities that people, they associate with Grey's Anatomy or Sleepless in Seattle or Frazier. And it's a, it's one of those cities where even when I was living here, I couldn't believe I was living. In Seattle. I'm like, I live in Seattle and like we live near the Space Needle.
[00:41:43] Sandy: And I'd look up and go, oh my gosh, I live in Seattle. And it's really, truly a great city. And also it is just so nice to have a cozy American Christmas, so I wanted to write that. Oh, beautiful. But yeah, that's out now. And then oh, can I,
[00:41:55] Pamela: before you go onto the next bit, Sandy the ever after Agent agency series, , can they be read in any order?
[00:42:02] Sandy: They can. Absolutely. There's spoilers for Poppy, so Poppy's actually the main character in the first book. It's called Match Me if You Can. Would suggest maybe starting there just as an introduction to her and what the whole series is about, but they are designed that you can read them as standalones, because my editor is really good about, just prompting me of a little bit more backstory here.
[00:42:22] Sandy: And it might just be like a sentence which kind of explains who people are. I've got, I've gotten really good. Writing. Writing at just peppering in the back story without being heavy handed. So yes, they can be read as standalone. Okay, great. Now, were you gonna tell us about the 12 tropes of Christmas anthology?
[00:42:40] Sandy: Yes, so the gorgeous, brilliant Anna Fox Kirk, we were at this romance Writers Australia meetup for Melbourne last year, and she and I just got chatting and we'd, connected on social media. So it was like a big hug and oh my gosh. Hi. It's nice to see you. And we are sitting around chatting with Heidi, Catherine and Nicola Marsh and Sharon Swine pole and Hannah's girls, I have this idea.
[00:43:03] Sandy: And I was thinking about like a Christmas anthology, but like doing instead of the, like the 12 days of Christmas, like tropes, would you be interested? And I'm like, yep. She didn't even finish the sentence. I'm like, sign me up. I'll write a short story for this. This sounds brilliant. I love the concept, I love the idea.
[00:43:19] Sandy: Everybody else at the table was like yep. And within a week she had everybody else signed up and we're all Aussie authors. We got to choose what tropes. We were on this long email thread that was just like this should be a WhatsApp group. And it was like, I'll do this one, I'll do this one, I'll do this one.
[00:43:36] Sandy: So they're all different tropes. I've done enemies to Lovers and we, oh, my favorite. It was, oh, it's just so fun. It's the banter. I love the banter. I love it too. And my story is about two people who work at an ad agency in London. And you know how the London Christmas adver advertisements, like the TV ones, they're huge. They're like the Super Bowl ads for England. Yeah. There's some great ones, oh, there's some really good ones.
[00:44:02] Sandy: And every year they're trying to just dazzle the viewers. So they work in an advertising firm that is pitching to the equivalent of say, John Lewis. And so Battle of the Christmas bonus and whoever gets wins, the pitch gets, gets the Christmas bonus, right? Yeah. So he is an American and he is really just, encourageable and, she's Ugh.
[00:44:22] Sandy: But she also lusts after him, secret, not so secretly her best friend's, always giving her a shit about it. But it was super fun. And it turns out there's a lot more to him than she thought. And they have to end up coming together to work on it. It's really cute.
[00:44:34] Pamela: And in fact and spicy. Spicy, oh, we've got a bit of spicy. Oh yeah. Excellent. Yeah.
[00:44:39] Sandy: My story was designated three gingerbread men out of three gingerbread men in Spice Love.
[00:44:46] Pamela: I love the spice rating, the gingerbread men. Yeah. I'm looking forward to reading that 'cause I've downloaded that book and I'll be reading this in the lead up to Christmas and in fact, Anna was on the podcast a little while ago talking about pulling all that together.
[00:44:59] Pamela: Yes. So I'll put a link to that episode in case anybody's listening and didn't hear that chat with Anna. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Yeah, she's brilliant. We are gonna head on in a minute to chat a little bit further and those, that is gonna go out to our Substack supporters in in the meantime, Sandy, we'll sign off. So people can find you at, is it sandy barker.com?
[00:45:21] Sandy: Yeah, that's probably the best way. It's prob probably the easiest.
[00:45:24] Pamela: And where's, what's your preferred kind of social media site?
[00:45:28] Sandy: I'm spending a lot of time on Instagram lately and I hear from readers all the time and I'm just always happy to reply and say hi and say thank you because they often, say really nice things.
[00:45:38] Sandy: It's, yeah. Yeah, so Instagram I would say. And I am on Facebook too and I've just started on threads, so yeah. I'm gonna be, come across those.
[00:45:47] Pamela: Alright. People can find you there. Thank you so much for being on Rights for Women. A pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.