Write from the Heart with Sandie Docker
“I think we need to own the label of women’s fiction and we want to make the other people want in, not us want out.”
Buy LYREBIRD LAKE LADIES CHOIR
Welcome back to the Writes4Women Podcast! Today Pam is talking to Sandie Docker, author of LYREBIRD LAKE LADIES CHOIR. The author of 6 women’s fiction novels, Sandie knows how to bring the feels. And she’s not shy in leaning into the emotional content of her books and embracing the label of Women’s Fiction in her author branding. This episode of Writes4Women encourages you to celebrate stories of hope and love!
In this episode…
🎙️📝This week on Writes4Women, get encouraged to dive deep in your work as Pamela Cook chats to Sandie Docker about heartfelt writing. Exploring themes of the power of community, music and hope (with a dual timeline!), Sandie’s latest novel, THE LYREBIRD LAKE LADIES CHOIR is full of feels. So how does she do it? Don’t miss this heartfelt chat! 💕🎶
Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and Guest Announcement
02:58 Meet Sandie Docker: Background and Works
03:57 Discussing THE LYREBIRD LAKE LADIES CHOIR
07:26 The Writing Process and Inspirations
13:11 The Healing Power of Music
17:39 Writing Techniques and Challenges
28:33 Dual Timelines and Character Development
38:23 The Importance of Author Branding
40:17 Embracing Women's Fiction
50:03 Northern Beaches Readers Festival
53:58 The Heart of Writing: Hope
55:49 Conclusion and Upcoming Events
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Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
[00:01:14] Pamela: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Rights for Women. It's Wednesday, July 24 as I'm recording this introduction and just yesterday actually, I had a lovely chat with today's guest and that guest is multi published Australian author, Sandie Docker.
[00:01:31] Pamela: Sandy has a fabulous new release called THE LYREBIRD LADIES LAKE CHOIR, which I've recently had the pleasure of reading. And it was fantastic to talk to Sandy about that book, about the writing of it, which is her sixth book but also about the kind of. Experiences she's had in terms of branding as an author and rebranding, and of course her writing process over the years, how that has evolved and a whole lot of other awfully type talk.
[00:02:00] Pamela: So I know you're gonna love that chat with Sandy as it's coming up. Just a quick personal update from me this week. Not much to report other than what I told you last week. I'm working my way through the draft of a place of her own, the third book in the Black Waddle Lake series. And I also wanna give a huge shout out again to my Patreon supporters.
[00:02:20] Pamela: Thank you to those people who are signing up the latest Patreon missive that I have sent out, which was a little video I did yesterday about how I am organizing, my plot for a place of her own. How I am tapping into all those things, which as particularly as commercial fiction author, so important to know things like, your character's wound the lie.
[00:02:44] Pamela: The truth that they will find at the end of the story when their character arc is complete. Things like the major dramatic question, just how I'm mapping all those things out, making sure that I've got those things clear in my head as I move through this draft, because I do have to have this draft written fairly quickly.
[00:03:02] Pamela: And of course, they're things that you might not necessarily know upfront for your first draft. They're things that you might. Work out during the course of that first draft and that you then might concentrate on for revision. But in the latest Patreon video that went out to Patreon family supporters a little insight into how I'm organizing that as I work my way through the draft of the third book in this series.
[00:03:26] Pamela: So thank you to everybody who is following along on Patreon. I'd also like to give a big shout out to everybody who is supporting a podcast by following, liking and sharing our posts on Instagram in particular. And Facebook, my fabulous virtual assistant, Annie Bucknell, is doing a brilliant job of keeping everybody updated and also putting out some really fun memes and things about the writing process, the writing, life reading and bookstores and all sorts of things.
[00:03:54] Pamela: So if you're not following rights for women on Instagram. Just head to Insta and follow us on W four W Podcast. So that's about it for everything I have to tell you this week. But I do wanna tell you a little bit about Sandy. So Sandy Docker is an Australian author who grew up in C'S Harbor, and she first fell in love with reading when her father introduced her to fantasy books as a teenager.
[00:04:21] Pamela: Her love of women's fiction began when she first read Jane Austen for the HSC, but it wasn't until she was taking a translation course at the university that her Mandarin lecturer suggested she might have a knack for writing. A seat of an idea. Sat quietly in the back of her mind for quite some time while she lived overseas and traveled the world, and then eventually became her first book.
[00:04:46] Pamela: Now living in Sydney, Sandy writes about love loss family and small country towns. Little bit like someone else. I know. Her debut novel, the Kookaburra Creek Cafe, was released in 2018. The cottage at Rose Cove in 2019., The Banksia Bay Beach Shack in 2020. The Wattled Island Book Club in 2021 and the Red Gum River Retreat in 2023.
[00:05:11] Pamela: Her latest novel, the Live Bird Lake Country Choir has recently been released and Sandy is right in the midst of a huge tour around various states in Australia and appearing at libraries and bookstores. So it was fantastic to talk to Sandy.
[00:05:26] Pamela: As I said, there is so much that we had to chat about. We've both been writing for quite some time and comparing notes on our writerly journeys and also this whole notion of women's fiction as a label and whether that or not that should be used. And we actually had a a big chat about that in this conversation.
[00:05:45] Pamela: And you'll have to listen on to see if we agree on that. So settle back, grab a cup. Put on your walking shoes, whatever it is that you do when you're listening or to rights for women. And remember that you can also watch the episode on the Rights for Women, youTube, which you can subscribe to and follow so that you get an update every time a new episode is uploaded.
[00:06:07] Pamela: Enjoy this chat with Sandy and I'll be back in your ears next week.
[00:06:12] Pamela: Sandy Docker. Welcome to the Rights for Women Convo Couch.
[00:06:17] Sandie: Thank you so much for having me, Pamela. It's lovely to be here.
[00:06:20] Pamela: Great to have you on. And I just was looking up actually, on the podcast website the last time you were on, you spoke to Cassie Hamer, who was our guest host at the time.
[00:06:32] Pamela: Yep. About the Red Gum River Retreat, which was your last book.
[00:06:38] Sandie: Yeah, it was. Yes, last year.
[00:06:40] Pamela: It feels like longer ago than that, but maybe '
[00:06:42] Sandie: cause it was Cassie and it wasn't you and I talking. Yeah, that's true.
[00:06:45] Pamela: That's true. We've obviously caught up at events and things and we'll talk perhaps a little later about the Northern Beaches Readers Festival, which is coming up in September where I'll be seeing you again.
[00:06:56] Pamela: Yep. But today we are here mainly to talk about your latest release, which is. The library, bird Lake ladies choir. I always have to stop Sandy with your titles and make sure I've got them right because they're, they've got a few words in them and there's often a bit of alliteration going on.
[00:07:13] Sandie: Yes, you can blame my publisher for that.
[00:07:15] Sandie: They like the alliteration and I have tripped myself up a number of times talking about library bird, which is why I tend to just call my books by one word. Live Bird.
[00:07:27] Pamela: Live Bird Easy. Yeah. Let's talk about live Bird. I finished this recently and I dunno what it is about your book, Sandy, but I found this the same with Red Gum River.
[00:07:39] Pamela: You have this way of writing and I'm gonna ask you about this to see if you know what it is. I'll ask you about this in a little while. I hope
[00:07:45] Sandie: I've got an intelligent answer. No
[00:07:46] Pamela: it's a good, it's a good comment. But sometimes these things are quite mysterious in the way that we write and whether we can actually articulate them.
[00:07:53] Pamela: So we'll talk about this a little bit later, but you have this way of writing that just really tugs at the reader's heartstrings in, not in a melodramatic way, but in a way that really. Makes you want to find out what's gonna happen to the characters. You've got this kind of real grasp on getting into the emotions of the characters.
[00:08:13] Pamela: I think and I definitely felt that in this book, I, would put it down overnight when I was reading it and then couldn't wait to get back to it the next day would make myself wait till the night because. Obviously other things to do in daylight hours, but it was always just so lovely to reconnect with the characters each time I went back into the story.
[00:08:31] Pamela: Before we get into talking about the book, just so readers know what we are talking about, can you give us a little rundown on what Live Bird is about?
[00:08:40] Sandie: Sure. It's the story of Hannah, who is a single mom living in her car with her 8-year-old son, Leo, after they find themselves homeless, and one night as she's trying to settle him in the backseat of the car, she sings him a lullaby.
[00:08:56] Sandie: Which is called the Live Bird Lake Lullaby, and it's a song that her father used to sing to her and she has no idea if Live Bird Lake is a real place or not. But given the situation she's in, she decides quite on a whim that she's gonna head there and see if she can turn her. Fortune around, so to speak, and when she arrives in Li Bird Lake, she meets sisters Eleanor and Maggie who came out from Ireland in 1973. Under circumstances we might have to dance around for spoiler reasons. I know
[00:09:27] Pamela: it's gonna be tricky to avoid spoilers in this. I think it's, it is.
[00:09:32] Sandie: And they are running the live bird like ladies choir, and they're also running a lodge for women who are finding themselves in vulnerable positions.
[00:09:39] Sandie: So they take Hannah under. Their wing and encourage her to join the choir and put a roof over her head in the lodge. And one night when Hannah is singing this same lullaby to Leo to get him to sleep again, Eleanor's walking the corridors of the lodge. She's the elder of the two sisters, and she stops dead in her tracks when she hears Hannah singing this lullaby because it's a lullaby that she wrote 40 years earlier and one that she never showed anyone.
[00:10:11] Pamela: Yeah, we're gonna leave all the listeners they're on that cliffhanger. Absolutely have to read the book to f or listen to the book to find out what happens. Where did the inspiration for this story come from for you, Sandy?
[00:10:25] Sandie: There were probably two major points of inspiration, and I don't know about you, Pamela, but I find that for any one book, there's usually a couple of different sparks of inspiration.
[00:10:36] Sandie: There might be one that kicks it off, and then there's a couple of others that help build out and flesh out the entire story. It's very rarely just one inspiration. Yeah. So the first spark of inspiration for this one was when I was reading. And in a article about homelessness in Australia, and the statistic that kind of kickstarted it all for me was the fact that the fastest growing demographic of homeless people in Australia are women in their fifties and older.
[00:11:07] Sandie: And I was blown away by that. I hit 50 this year and I'm thinking how is this possible that women like me are ending up? Situations like this, and the statistics are horrendous. Of the 122,000 people that find themselves homeless every night in Australia, three out of four of those are women and children.
[00:11:30] Sandie: And so I went down the research rabbit hole as we refer to it. And I think there are certain aspects that as a society we understand how someone might find themselves in this position. If a woman is a victim of domestic violence, I think we can understand how she might end up being homeless.
[00:11:49] Sandie: If addiction is running in the family somewhere, I think we can understand how someone might end up in that vulnerable position. But other than that, we tend to see it as a problem for others. Yeah, but it happens to other people and for other reasons, and it wouldn't happen to you or I, but the frightening thing about it is happening to those people that we don't naturally think of as being vulnerable.
[00:12:15] Sandie: Women like myself, who. Have chosen to stay home and raise children and give up work for that who haven't worked for quite some time in a stable relationship, stable financially for all intents and purposes, and then something just goes wrong. And they find themselves vulnerable. And so I wanted to shed a little bit of light on that side of it, that side of homelessness that we don't naturally think of.
[00:12:39] Sandie: So that was where Hannah's. Story came from, and then the other spark of inspiration is to do with Eleanor and Maggie and their. Reasons for coming to Australia from Ireland in 1973, and that is to do with my own grandmother, who is a lot older than these ladies. My grandma came out here in the 1920s I think it was.
[00:13:01] Sandie: But there's a bit of mystery surrounding the how and the why of my grandmother coming to Australia. Things like her marriage certificate having been doctored and hints of other people within the family that nobody knew anything of. Okay. And tried over the years to find out the truth to her story and I've never been able to find it.
[00:13:22] Sandie: Being of a somewhat imaginative mindset. I have made up a thousand different scenarios over the years of what may or may not have happened to my Nan, and one of those scenarios that I made up for her is what became Eleanor and Maggie's story. And again, I'm sorry for dancing around things there.
[00:13:42] Pamela: No, that's fine. You're doing, you're dancing very beautifully, Sandy, because it's does require a bit of tap dancing to not give away the spoilers, which I'm also very conscious of, so I know. We'll edit any out if we do give them. So you had those two kind of inspirations for your characters.
[00:14:00] Pamela: And another a huge part of the story, which is indicated by the title is the music, which you know, Eleanor and Maggie have a choir and Hannah is involved in music herself. Separately being very careful with what I say. I guess it's about the healing power of music and the way that music can bring people together.
[00:14:19] Pamela: Where does that kind of thing come from for you? Have you had personal experience of that?
[00:14:25] Sandie: Not as overtly as what is explored within the pages of Library Bird, but I think all of us can relate to music being a healing power. You only have to think of just your everyday life. If you've had a really bad day at work, or you've broken up with your boyfriend, or you know you've had troubles with your family over Christmas or whatever it might, yeah.
[00:14:47] Sandie: Be one of the first things we do is we pop on our favorite song to try to lift ourselves out of that. Doldrums that we might be in. And I definitely believe that music has healing powers and that it is a primal part of who we are as human beings. We were singing before we could Talk, I.
[00:15:08] Pamela: If you think go back
[00:15:09] Sandie: To cavemen days. Yeah. And so it is a very primal thing and a, and the fact that we could sing before we could talk is an indication of it. It bringing people together and that sense of belonging. So that's always been in the back of my mind. I'm not musical myself, but I can respond to music and I think everybody can.
[00:15:29] Sandie: It's a universal language. And I explored music therapy in Red Gum last, that's right, last year's novel. And there is a very small element of a choir in that story. And when I was writing that, I remember thinking, man, a choir would be something really fun. To explore properly. And so that bled in into this one.
[00:15:55] Sandie: So using that, primal sense of music being a healing power and the sense of community and belonging that comes with a choir.
[00:16:03] Pamela: Which of course is perfect for your kind of story, that whole idea of community and belonging which we're gonna talk about. Yeah. Bit. I'll have to say, Sandy, it is on my bucket list to one day.
[00:16:14] Pamela: Join choir. My family laugh when I say this 'cause they, even though two of my daughters have quite beautiful voices and sing, they're not so much now, but they have sung in the past. And I always claim that they get their voice from me. They would dispute that. But yeah, it's on my bucket list.
[00:16:31] Pamela: I just love that idea, like you were saying, of a bunch of particularly women for some reason coming together and just letting go and I know that it's more than just letting go. There's, obviously, there's harmonies and all that sort of thing, but just that sense of being part of something bigger and those voices just harmonizing.
[00:16:49] Sandie: Yeah. And the beauty of a choir, like the Live Bird, late Ladies Choir, is that you don't have to be able to sing to join it. It's a community choir. And Eleanor and Maggie I say Eleanor and Maggie will take anyone. I think I may be the exception. Maybe you. And they operate my daughter has a beautiful voice.
[00:17:09] Sandie: She sang for her HSC as her major work. She sings beautifully. I dunno where she gets it from. It is definitely not from me. When she was three years old and you sing lullabies to your kids and you play games on the carpet with them and sing nursery rhymes. She would turn around and say, mommy, please stop. That's how bad I am. So I think if I rocked up at Li Bird, like Eleanor and Maggie might perhaps suggest I make the tea for the choir. But other than that, they will take anyone. And it is just, it comes down to that sense of belonging. And I think that, again, as human beings, belonging is as important to us as breathing.
[00:17:53] Sandie: If we don't find that place in the world where we belong, whether that's as part of a community or within a family or within a relationship or friendship group or whatever it might be, we don't find that place where we belong, then that heads us down a very dangerous and dark path, and we are all searching for that sense of belonging.
[00:18:12] Sandie: And I think that a choir can do that, and particularly a choir like this where they will accept. Anyone with open arms and just yeah, raising those voices as one. And the fact that when you're in a choir doesn't actually matter that much if you can't sing particularly well because it's the fact that you are surrounded by all of these other voices, and it's the blending of those voices that makes everybody sound good regardless of the individual's ability.
[00:18:41] Pamela: , I agree. It's, there's nothing more uplifting than listening to a choir and just being, spirited away somewhere. Who doesn't smile? They take it. Who doesn't
[00:18:48] Sandie: smile when a choir is performing?
[00:18:52] Pamela: Yeah. Sandy, I just wanted to talk a little bit about your writing process, when it's time comes time to write a new book. What comes first for you? Is it this, an idea, like this idea of a choir? Is it a character?
[00:19:06] Pamela: Is it a plot line? What starts the story off for you?
[00:19:10] Sandie: It's definitely the idea. I am very firmly in the Paning camp of Plotters versus Pants, which I'm sure your listeners are very familiar with. Yes. Yeah, so I'm very much in the Paning camp and I very much go based on feel. So I start with the idea.
[00:19:30] Sandie: So if a library bird, for example, it was Hannah living in her car with her son. What does that look like? What does that feel like? And I just start writing from that place. And then the characters tell me where they want to go.
[00:19:44] Pamela: Fabulous. So you've got an idea of story as we all do, and how a story needs to flow and what the turning points are and things. So I guess you know what you're working towards, but in terms of those practicalities of, okay, I've written one scene or a few scenes, now I've gotta sit down and write the next one.
[00:19:59] Pamela: How do you tackle that?
[00:20:01] Sandie: And I think this comes with a little bit of experience 'cause I definitely did not do this with my first couple of books, but I also wasn't on any kind of deadline with my first couple of books. So they were pre-contract, which meant I had all the time in the world to faff around with those.
[00:20:15] Sandie: And I took all the time in the world with those. Kookaburra took three years to write. Rose Cove took five. So it didn't matter whether I, come back the next day. Had no idea what to do. I could walk away and come back to it the next day, the next week, the next month. It didn't matter. Yeah. But once you are on contract and once you've got that little bit of experience behind you, what I have found really helpful, and it's something that I have definitely done for the last probably two to three books now, is once I have decided that I'm done for the day, whenever that might be, as you said, whether it's one scene or a couple of scenes or maybe a chapter.
[00:20:52] Sandie: Who knows? I. Have a little piece of paper and pen beside my keyboard and I jot down where I think the story is going next, or just some, little dot points, essentially just dot points of what I think is gonna happen next so that when I come to it the next morning, that's where I start with those dot points.
[00:21:12] Sandie: It doesn't mean that they make it into that next piece of writing, but it means that I'm not coming to the computer blank and going. Oh, you know what?
[00:21:22] Pamela: Yeah. I
[00:21:22] Sandie: don't know what to do next. So I always make sure I leave a little note to myself or, and it, maybe it's not even about plot, it might be about character or it might be about feeling, or it might be about, explore X, y, Z more.
[00:21:35] Sandie: Something like that. But I always do leave myself a little note.
[00:21:38] Pamela: And do you revise as you go or you do you get to the end and then see what you've got?
[00:21:43] Sandie: I try not to revise as I go unless I hit a point where I know. That it's an absolute disaster and it has to be thrown out. I'm a very firm believer in get the story down and fix it later.
[00:21:59] Pamela: Yeah. And then what would your process be then? You read through the whole thing, go back and fix certain things. What's your kind of first revision process?
[00:22:10] Sandie: I do tend to also write notes about things that I know I need to fix because I find if I stop to fix it as I go, as I said, unless it's a really major issue that I know I can't move forward from, I. I just leave myself a note to fix things because I don't wanna get bogged down in fixing it in that process, because that's one, and I'm a huge procrastinator. I'm really good at it. You know the Olympics, are you raising your hand?
[00:22:35] Sandie: The Olympics are coming up, and I tell you what, if there was a gold medal for procrastination. I'd be in with the best chance of winning that. So I know if I do stop and fix those things along the way, I'll never get to the end. So just like I have the notes for what I wanna do the next day, I also keep a notebook of things that I know I need to fix.
[00:22:58] Sandie: And so it might be fixing a description or fixing a plot point that's not quite working, and I keep those notes. In a book and keep those beside me. So when I've got what is, what's the bare bones of the first draft down? I look through that first, and if there's simple things that I need to fix, describe the lake better, I'll go in and do those so that I feel like I'm moving.
[00:23:21] Sandie: Forward. If it's slightly trickier things like fixing a character arc or fix, fixing a plot arc then I do go from beginning to end. Read it through and find those moments where I can fix those issues that I know are already there.
[00:23:36] Pamela: And what do you, what would you say, I know it's always hard to quantify this, but what would you say would be your rough number of revisions before you're ready to send it out to a reader?
[00:23:46] Sandie: It depends how close I am to my deadline so being a pants and I pants, everything in my life deadlines and I are not very good friends. So it depends how long I've got. To do it. It would be maybe two or three, drafts before it goes to the publisher. Sometimes they're in better shape than others when they get there.
[00:24:07] Sandie: And if they're in worse shape, then that's obviously a stronger structural edit that we need I to do. Yeah so two to three drafts, before it's ready to be seen.
[00:24:18] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. And do you use beta readers, Sandy, or is your publisher your, your first reader generally?
[00:24:23] Sandie: I usually have one person that will read it before it goes to the publisher, but no more than one because too many voices just confuses things and I.
[00:24:36] Sandie: Nine times out of 10, if you had a, three or four different beta readers, they would have different opinions and then you've gotta figure out which one's which. Back in, as I said, yeah, in the early days, but before I was under contract, I had many readers that were reading my work before I.
[00:24:52] Sandie: Other people saw it, but now it's just the one person usually, and depends on how close I am to that dreaded deadline. As to whether it's, can you please just give this a proofread and highlight anything that's massive that stands out, or whether it's a proper feedback session?
[00:25:08] Pamela: , I think it's interesting, isn't it, the way you refine your process as you go along.
[00:25:13] Pamela: Like you are at book six, so you know. What works for you now and how that can, help not hinder the rest of the process.
[00:25:21] Sandie: Yeah, and as you would know, Pamela, you write each book differently too. The way you wrote your first one is not the same as you, the way you wrote your sixth one or your 10th one, or whatever number people might be up to.
[00:25:33] Sandie: You have evolved as a writer. You've evolved with your craft and as you just mentioned, you've learned what's worked for you and what doesn't work for you. I've tried plotting, for example, that does not work for me. I now don't even consider doing it because I know that's not gonna work and it's actually gonna make things worse for me.
[00:25:52] Sandie: So it's getting to know yourself and trusting in yourself and your own processes,
[00:25:55] Pamela: yeah, that whole thing of trusting your process is really important. Having confidence in it, isn't it? Yeah. How was writing this book different for you then? You mentioned each book is different.
[00:26:05] Pamela: I a hundred percent agree with that or might have been different. How was this one different for you than the others?
[00:26:11] Sandie: This one was different in that through my own fault. I really cut the deadline fine on this one, so I didn't have a lot of time to actually get it in a space where it could go to the publisher. That was, as I said, through my own fault. Nobody else is to blame. For that one. I could blame life because it is life, but it happens.
[00:26:35] Pamela: Yeah.
[00:26:35] Sandie: I just have to own it. So that was really tight. The other thing that was different with this one is that I underwrote it and I normally over write.
[00:26:46] Sandie: So if you're looking at, say, the average word count of being 90,000 ish words, I would normally write like 110 and have to pair it back. For example, possibly because I was cutting it so close to the deadline with this one, I underwrote this one and I only had 70,000 words when I finished. Finished. And I'm using inverted commas here.
[00:27:10] Sandie: Yes. For anybody who can't see, no, I know. Finished the first draft, so that was a bit of a shock to me. Having to do that. And then I had to figure out what's missing? Because, there's a reason that most books are around that 90 to a hundred thousand word count. And if you've gone way over, that means you've done too much of something, and if you've gone under, it means there's something missing.
[00:27:32] Sandie: And so I had to figure out what was missing from this one. So yeah, underwriting, this one was quite a new thing for me.
[00:27:40] Pamela: So then it was a matter in the next stage of adding those words and scenes in filling it, fleshing it out a bit.
[00:27:46] Sandie: Yeah, it wasn't just fleshing it out. 'cause you can always do that, right?
[00:27:50] Sandie: You can be beef up your descriptions and that sort of thing. But it was more than that. It was, so there was absolutely something missing and I had to figure out what that was. And that was through a conversation with my editor, I handed it in at 70, but with, the caveat in the email.
[00:28:06] Sandie: I know there's something missing. I know we've still got more work to do. I'm still trying to figure it out. And I think it was a phone call brainstorming session that we had about what was actually missing from this. And for anyone who has read it what wasn't in that original draft of 70,000 words with the choir vignettes.
[00:28:26] Sandie: Oh, okay. So I'm calling in vignettes because they're not full chapters. They're about two pages long. And the first one is, it starts the book with the first, the very first rehearsal of the Live Bird Late Ladies Choir. And we see that from Maggie's point of view, and it's just a two pages long, and we see that throughout the novel.
[00:28:41] Sandie: That was not in that original draft, and that was what was missing. Okay. So that was a great
[00:28:46] Pamela: additional,
[00:28:47] Pamela: , yeah. Now, because I've read it of course, and that does definitely add to the whole kind of. Community feel of it and that whole sense of the choir being such a crucial element of the story.
[00:28:57] Sandie: Yeah. And giving Maggie a voice. Yes. Because while Maggie is one of the main characters, it is predominantly told through Hannah and Eleanor's voice. But Maggie is an in very important part of the story, and we need to see her voice because when. All the secrets come out, we need to see her reaction
[00:29:20] Pamela: to
[00:29:20] Sandie: that.
[00:29:20] Sandie: So giving her that voice and yeah, seeing the choir build over time and getting to know those ladies a little bit more as well was really important.
[00:29:29] Pamela: Yeah, there's some lovely characters in the choir and they appear in those sections. Yeah. That kind of brings me to, you mentioned Maggie and her voice coming through there, Eleanor's voice.
[00:29:40] Pamela: Also is a big part of the story. And there is a dual timeline happening in this story as well. How did you tackle the writing of that dual timeline? Because then we see the sisters when they were in Ireland, basically. I don't think that's giving too much away. No, that's not, their life before they arrived in Australia.
[00:29:58] Pamela: So how did you tackle writing that and weaving that through the story? Did you do it just was it organic? You just got to a point in the story, you thought, oh, now I need to tell this part of the story, and then that happened. Or did you insert it later? What was that process for you?
[00:30:13] Sandie: Yeah, and again, this has been different for all six of the novels. 'cause I write in multiple timelines in all of my. Novels. Some of them I have done in alternating chapters. Written them that way. Past thread, present thread. Yep. Past thread, present thread. Others. I've written the entire historical section first, then written the present, and then smooshed them together during the editing process.
[00:30:37] Sandie: With this one, I did separate it. I wrote the historical thread first. And then inserted that into their present. So we see Maggie and Eleanor in 1973 and also present day, and that's through Eleanor's point of view. And then as I separated the historical section into different chapters of where the natural breaks were for that and added Eleanor's present perspective onto that.
[00:31:07] Sandie: When I was adding Eleanor's present perspective, that's when I was writing Hannah's. Present perspective as well.
[00:31:14] Pamela: Yeah, it's really interesting. The same voices, but they're different because Eleanor whose voice we're hearing in those past and present timelines so much has happened to her.
[00:31:24] Pamela: And it's just a really interesting way of setting up that storyline. Leaving, those gaps and ending each of those scenes on a particular note to keep the reader guessing and wondering. And then gradually, as the story, unfolds, we get to start to piece things together. So it works really beautifully.
[00:31:43] Sandie: Oh, thank you. And yeah, Eleanor at 19, which is how old she's in the 1973 thread, is a very different person to Eleanor in 2029 when she's 60. Eight or whatever it might be. Math is not my strong point. And we don't know what's happened in the meantime. We see bits of what's happened, but we don't know the entirety of what's happened.
[00:32:03] Sandie: And so to have her still be Eleanor, but to have, a 19-year-old voice and a 68 plus year old voice who's lived but still make it the same person that's the trick when you are writing in multiple timelines.
[00:32:18] Pamela: Yeah. So it's like you're tapping into, or trying to imagine who was this older person, in, in a younger life and what were their Yeah the younger and older version and things like that.
[00:32:29] Pamela: , this is the side of writing and character stuff that I love is just all this psychology, and just thinking about backstory and, because this is, it's like a backstory, but you bring it to life through these, past narrative scenes, which is. Fantastic.
[00:32:44] Sandie: And we also wanna leave room for the reader to see Eleanor in the present day with the edge that she has compared to the 19-year-old woman who was, quite rebellious and quite a dreamer.
[00:32:57] Sandie: How did she get from there to there? You wanna leave room for the reader to imagine how why has she got this edge to her at the age of 68? This is what she was like at 19, but it still has to make sense for the reader. So that's the balancing point.
[00:33:11] Pamela: And this is the beauty of writing, I think.
[00:33:14] Pamela: A couple of things, multiple points of view, multiple time timelines or dual timelines is it does give you this ability as the writer to play around with. I guess you're playing around with the reader a little bit. Not in a horrible, manipulative way, we're keeping them guessing and yeah.
[00:33:31] Pamela: And it does give you that opportunity to create, I think, tension and mystery and all those secrets, that we know are in there, but you can work around them more when you've got all these different things going on, as opposed to maybe a single. Single point of view, single timeline story, which I'm currently writing, and now I'm talking to you, Sandy, and thinking why
[00:33:51] Sandie: I'm a firm believer, Pamela, that the story tells us how it wants to be written true. Whether that is single timeline, multiple timelines, single point of view, first tense, past, present tense. Past tense, first person, third person. The story tells us how it wants to be written if we are open enough to listen to it.
[00:34:12] Sandie: So you are clearly writing that story that way for a reason. Yes.
[00:34:17] Pamela: And it is the third in a series, and the others have been single point of view, single timelines. So there you go. I have written multiple points of view on multiple timelines, so maybe the next one. Sandy, we were talking about your publishing career to date, and you have, this is your sixth book.
[00:34:33] Pamela: It is a bit of a different look. This book we have a beautiful cover. You've got actually anybody who is watching on video, you'll see Sandy's got her gorgeous book covers. And I mean your, all of your book covers have been absolutely stunning. And just so eye-catching but this one is a little bit of a different look.
[00:34:50] Pamela: Can you give us any insight into why that is?
[00:34:53] Sandie: Yeah, it still fits the branding and, gosh, I hate using that word when we are talking about something creative, but at the end of the day, it is a business and it is branding. So it's still, it still looks like a Sandy Docker book, but I think of it as slightly more sophisticated.
[00:35:13] Sandie: Than the other five. But as I'm sure that most of your listeners will know that we don't get a lot of say in our covers. When you're traditionally published, you don't have much of a say in your covers. So I did not know that they were changing direction with book number six. I just got that email, the same email that, we all get from the publishing house.
[00:35:36] Sandie: Here's your cover. We hope you love it as much as we do. Yep. We, and that's regardless of which publishing house you are at Exactly. I think, yes. That's a story from every writer that I know. And I was quite shocked when I first opened it because Okay. I, it wasn't what I was expecting. I was expecting very similar to the other five, obviously.
[00:35:56] Sandie: Trying to guess what color it might be. Yeah. I knew there would be a live bird on the cover, obviously, because of the title, but other than that, I didn't know. So I was a little bit shocked when I first opened it, and. It took me a little while to get used to the fact that we were going in a slightly different direction.
[00:36:13] Sandie: I love it. It is now my favorite of all of my covers. I absolutely love it. And what I think it does, and I'm assuming this was the purpose behind it, is that it captures that the depth of the novels that, there are some dark themes in every single one of my novels and the other covers maybe don't capture that.
[00:36:36] Sandie: Whereas this captures that sophistication and perhaps that more historical thread within it. And I think it was just a matter of six books in it's time just to switch things up again, because the market changes. In six years, the market's going to change, the readership is going to change. I have grown and changed as an author, and the cover needs to reflect that.
[00:37:00] Pamela: Oh, a hundred percent agree, Cindy. And of course, fashion's going in and out with, cover design just as they do with everything else. But yeah, I fully agree with you that. I have always loved your covers and as I said, they're very eye catching. They probably don't speak so much to some of the more serious issues in your books, whereas I think this does give you the scope to really, and going forward with your future books, I think this gives you a lot of room to play with, the look of obviously keeping it similar to this one probably for some time.
[00:37:29] Pamela: But yeah, I just think it broadens it out a bit, doesn't it?
[00:37:33] Sandie: Yeah, I think so. And we have this discussion quite a lot and I'm sure you do this the same when you're having events, with readers. 'cause readers are always fascinated with covers. Yeah. And how much say we do have in them.
[00:37:45] Sandie: Obviously when you are independently published, you have a lot more say in your cover. Reader's always fascinated by that. And the thing that I always respond with is that it's not a writing decision. A cover is not a writing decision, it's a marketing decision. Which is why, when you're with a traditional house it's out of your hands because they're the experts in that.
[00:38:07] Sandie: And when you're independently published, it would be the same thing. You can't. Think about your words and how precious they are to you, and that it's your heart and soul. You need to think of that cover as, how am I gonna sell this book? Who's going to pick it up from the shelf or online? When I'm searching the, online stores, who is it gonna appeal to?
[00:38:26] Sandie: Because obviously a cover that has, maybe. Dark colors and a knife with a blood dripping off it that tells you what's inside that story. You instantly know and despite the adage, you can't judge a book by its cover. You absolutely have to, when you're choosing, if it's an author unknown to you, that is the very first selling point, is that cover.
[00:38:45] Sandie: Yeah, it's a marketing decision first and foremost.
[00:38:48] Pamela: Definitely. I know it's early days. Sandy, the book, how long has the book been out now?
[00:38:52] Sandie: A month. Oh, okay. 18th of June. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:54] Pamela: 18th of June. Been out. So it is early days, but have you had any readers come up to you at events or have you had any feedback, online or messages to that effect that of readers who perhaps haven't read any of your earlier books, but have picked it up because of the cover or were attracted by the cover?
[00:39:10] Sandie: I haven't had that, but I will say that at the events that I've recently done, the majority of people in the audience were readers that were new to me. Which is fabulous. And one of the selling points that the libraries do obviously is put up a picture of the cover. So I don't know if there's a direct correlation between that.
[00:39:30] Sandie: I hope that there is. And what's interesting is that those people then also look at your back list.
[00:39:36] Pamela: Yeah. Interesting. This whole issue of author branding, which of course the cover and the title and all that sort of thing is such a big part of it. How important do you think it is for authors to be pretty o fa with their own author brand and to have a pretty secure idea of who they are in terms of branding?
[00:39:55] Sandie: Oh, I think it's essential. To this because as we just mentioned it, it is at the end of the day a business. And we have to treat it that way in this modern age. Gone are the days where a writer could just, sit in their shed and write their beautiful words and put it out there and magic happens.
[00:40:12] Sandie: That's gone. We are expected to be on social media. We are expected to connect with our readers, and that's actually part of the job that I really love is connecting with the readers. But all of that, part of that is. Brand and who you are and how you, and I hate using this word, but how you sell yourself and your stories to the public.
[00:40:32] Sandie: And you only have to think about just how many options there are out there for readers. The market is absolutely saturated with wonderful choices from every genre. And if you look in your bookstore or your library, the number of choices that you have. Is quite mind blowing. So having a strong brand as an author helps you find new readers and it helps the readers that already love your work find you very easily in amongst that absolute sea of stock that's out there.
[00:41:05] Pamela: So true. Cindy. And I think part of your brand is and this is on your website, is that you're an author of contemporary women's fiction. As I think of myself as that kind of author. Yep. This whole label, I guess of women's fiction is often something that's a little bit contentious.
[00:41:24] Pamela: Some people hate it and say, why should women, why should it be specifically women? All that sort of thing. What's your take on that?
[00:41:31] Sandie: I have actually a pretty strong take on this.
[00:41:34] Pamela: Oh, good. Do detail. So do I.
[00:41:37] Sandie: And as a modern, somewhat feminist person raising an 18-year-old daughter, my take may actually surprise people.
[00:41:46] Sandie: I think that we should own it. I think we should own the label of women's fiction. Firstly, women make up the bulk of the buying public when it comes to books, right? So why not target ourselves to those people? And the other thing is, I think if we rile against that, all that does is reinforce the fact that women's fiction isn't a valid.
[00:42:15] Sandie: Option. Whereas if we embrace it and we make them want in, that elevates us that, yeah, actually this is something special. Women's fiction is special and you want in. If I'm the one going, oh, I want out, then I'm actually, I. Putting down the thing that I love and the thing that I write. So for me, I think we need to own the label of women's fiction and we want to make the other people want in, not us want out.
[00:42:40] Pamela: Oh, I could not agree more. I'm mo also a mother of three daughters feminist and. I don't see it as derogatory at all. I, in fact, am loud and proud about yes, contemporary women's fiction as a label. I write books about women for women.
[00:42:56] Pamela: That's who my audience is. Absolutely. And I'm not ashamed of that. I'm not embarrassed by it and No.
[00:43:02] Sandie: And why should we be? Yeah. And that's the thing. And if we are, then that only reinforces those stereotypes out there that it's not a worthy genre when it absolutely is. I'm one of those people that thinks every genre is worthy.
[00:43:15] Sandie: I hate literary snobs. It really does. My head in every book is important. A comic book is important to the people that it strikes a chord with. Yeah. Yeah. Make them want in rather than us. Out. Absolutely. But we are in the minority, I think in that. I think we
[00:43:30] Pamela: are. I think we are. I've had this conversation with quite a few people on the podcast and I think we are, but anyway we'll stand our ground on that one.
[00:43:38] Pamela: Sandy, I'm with you. Just you and me at
[00:43:40] Sandie: the top of the hill with our placards cheering. Woo. It's the same with motherhood, right? I see this exactly the same as motherhood when. When we use the term just a mum. Or what else do you do or what are the things you, I am incredibly proud of the fact that I am a mom, incredibly proud of the relationship that I have with my daughter and the job that I have done.
[00:44:06] Sandie: And I'm not saying I've done it because none of us are perfect when it comes to parenting. Lord knows I've made a million mistakes there. Of all of the things that I am, and I wrote an article on this probably about five years ago in one of the women's online magazines of all of the things that I am a wife, a mother.
[00:44:27] Sandie: A daughter, a writer. Back then I was the PNC President. I'm a netball coach. Other jobs that I've done, I've been a teacher of all of the things that I am and have been and ever will be. The one thing I would never give up for anything is being a mom. So why on earth should we not be proud of that?
[00:44:47] Pamela: Oh,
[00:44:48] Sandie: I've got
[00:44:48] Pamela: goosebumps. I agree. Sandy. Woo. Love it. Yeah. Like just own it. And it's the same, you're talking about genres. It's that thing that a lot of romance authors get to, isn't it? Oh, you just, oh, it's just a romance.
[00:45:00] Pamela: It's just a romance. And I have said on here, I'm gonna admit, I used to have that mindset back in the day when I was a literary snob and I only read literary fiction. And then I realized when I went to write. My natural voice wasn't literary fiction. My natural voice was something much broader.
[00:45:19] Pamela: Yep. It was commercial fiction, basically. Commercial women's fiction. Yeah. And then I, when I really started to think and have a good hard look at it, I thought, you idiot. Of course. And then when I thought about it, I thought, what are the stories that I love to read? What are the stories I love to watch?
[00:45:34] Pamela: They've all got romance and love in them. If of some kind, I've got a massive poster, like six foot poster of Moulin Rouge above my desk, so you know, people, am I to be dissing romance? So my head completely turned around about that, and now whenever I hear anybody, oh, it's just romance. Oh, what are you reading?
[00:45:53] Pamela: Oh, just a romance. I'm like. My hackles rise and it's the same, with those things you were talking about with just a mom or just a commercial fiction author or whatever no, these are important things and we're owning them. What
[00:46:05] Sandie: is more important in life than love? At the end of the day, that's what we are all here for is love.
[00:46:13] Sandie: , it really does get my hackles up and if we think back to the mom thing, if we're not proud as individual mothers ourselves of being a mom and of the job we do, how can we ever expect anyone else to respect that role in society?
[00:46:28] Pamela: Yes, and of course, motherhood is a really important theme, Sandy, in your books, isn't it? Definitely in Live Bird Lake and in, the other books of yours that I've read there is. Always a story about parenting or motherhood or relationships between mothers and children?
[00:46:43] Sandie: Yeah, absolutely. Not always biological.
[00:46:45] Sandie: Some of the stories have that relationship where it hasn't been a biological connection, but the roles have been that of a parental type figure with. A childlike figure, but definitely Li Bird and Red Gum have very strong themes of motherhood in them. And I guess part of that is me working through those issues that we've just talked about.
[00:47:07] Sandie: Owning the fact that I am a mom and I'm very proud of it. And also exploring the challenges that come with motherhood, because anyone who's been a mother or a parent, particularly if you are the primary caregiver within that. Family unit there are some challenges that come your way and they're not easy and we don't talk about them enough.
[00:47:29] Sandie: So I'm hoping that in Live Bird Lake we have the Hannah Leo story, where Hannah is, she's homeless with her son. In her car, he's eight, and her driving force is to protect him and keep him safe, and she puts all of her emotions and feelings about what's going on. Back because she has to stay strong for her son.
[00:47:51] Sandie: So I'm hoping that comes through. And then also Eleanor takes on the role of. A mother figure for Maggie when they arrive in Australia at the ages of 19 and 16, having left everything that they knew behind in Ireland and what does that look like? And then obviously when they take Hannah under their wings in the choir as well, there's different layers of that type of relationship being explored in Li Bird.
[00:48:19] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. And as you say, isn't it interesting that as you've come to terms with those issues, it's coming through of course, in your writing. Yeah. So I love that, your writing's evolving just like you are as a person, as we all do, I think it's fabulous. I'm gonna get back to some of those emotional things just when we get to the last question, but I just wanted to touch a little bit more on your tour that you're currently doing. Have you actually added up how many different events you are doing Sandy, for part of this, because it would be quite a large number,
[00:48:51] Sandie: it would scare the, you know what out me if I did. I'm one of those people that will say yes to anything. So every time my publicist has come through and said, oh, how about this?
[00:49:02] Sandie: I'm like, yep, sure. What about that? Yep, sure. Add it in. Again, yeah, partly 'cause as I mentioned earlier, that I love that connection that you have with readers. So going out and doing events is part of the job that I love. I love seeing readers face to face and chatting about. The book and the characters and that sort of thing.
[00:49:21] Sandie: But I also am a firm believer in, looking back and having no regrets. Yeah. As we know, writing is a business, so we don't, we can't control sales figures and what happens there. But whatever happens with sales figures, I wanna be able to look back and go, I did everything that I could, everything that was in my power.
[00:49:41] Sandie: So I have done, yeah, I, it is sitting next to me on the desk. I could count them up if I was so inclined, but I don't know that I will. Although I was at the physio this morning and she's oh, you've just got back from tour? And I'm like, yeah. And she goes, oh, so how many towns did you go to? And it was like it was like 15 towns in 10 days or something.
[00:49:57] Sandie: Oh, wow. It was like ridiculous. And I'm not finished yet. I'm heading off again next week up north.
[00:50:03] Pamela: Yeah, amazing. You got down to Tassie too, I think as part of its tour, didn't you?
[00:50:08] Sandie: Yeah, so Tassie was first, so I went down to Tassie and spent about five days down there, which was freezing, but wonderful.
[00:50:15] Sandie: And then I've done a south coast a CT Country Victoria tour. That's the one I've just got back from. And then I'm heading up to Brisbane, gold Coast, Tweed next and sprinkled. Between all of those are local events. To me, Sydney is where I am based, so there's a, I've got two this week in Sydney and then a bunch of radio interviews and podcast interviews and stuff in between as well.
[00:50:37] Sandie: There was one day there where I think on tour I did two or three radio interviews and two events and driving from town to town at the same time
[00:50:46] Pamela: oh my goodness. Your head must have been spinning.
[00:50:51] Sandie: I'm a little bit tired.
[00:50:52] Pamela: Just a little. That's okay. Just a little.
[00:50:54] Sandie: So things slow down a little bit when I get back from Queensland, but I still have events, I've got some events later in August.
[00:51:01] Sandie: I've got a couple of events already booked in for October in September we have the festival, so there's no feet touching ground at any point, probably until Christmas wow.
[00:51:13] Pamela: That is amazing. Hopefully you get little breaks in between. Yes. Let's talk a little bit about the festival, the Northern Beaches Readers Festival.
[00:51:21] Pamela: This will be the second and I was lucky enough to attend and be part of the first, as I will be at the second coming up in September. Very excited. Can you tell listeners a little about that, Sandy?
[00:51:33] Sandie: So the Northern Beaches Readers Festival, as you said, is in its second year. This year. We're a biennial.
[00:51:38] Sandie: I always get that wrong. Biennial Festival. So once every two years, and we focus on the sort of stories that we were just talking about, Pamela, the ones that we like to curl up in bed with at nighttime. So the genres of. Crime, romance, romcom, women's fiction, historical magical realism. It's a weekend event in September.
[00:52:01] Sandie: I think we have 49 authors this year appearing in panel conversations. Couple of, panel sessions, a couple of in conversation sessions with a couple of workshops as well, which you are a part of, as well as facilitating one of our panels. And it's just a really fun, happy, joyous weekend where we just get to meet all of the writers, as I said, that we love to curl up with at nighttime in bed.
[00:52:28] Sandie: And the fact that we call it a reader's festival as opposed to a writer's festival is very deliberate on the committee's behalf because. We want it to be about the connection that writers have with their readers. That is the focus of the festival. So we're about to release the program to our early bird subscribers, to our newsletters that'll go out on the 24th, and then general ticket sales will be open on the 31st of July.
[00:52:56] Pamela: Exciting. And as you say, Sandy, I, what I love about this readers festival is, and I know this was a lot of feedback that you guys got to from people who attended last time. Is the fact that it is aimed at people who read commercial fiction. Yep. It's, there might be a little bit of literary aspect here and there, but , if you look at something like Sydney Writers Festival and absolutely loved it, had a great time there this year.
[00:53:21] Pamela: Always loved their sessions, but they're very much marketed around literary fiction so this is a festival that really focuses on books that you can walk in and pick up. From your local book bookstore, but also from your kind of discount department stores, big W. And the books that are out there selling lots and lots of copies and lots of people are reading and often don't get the chance to meet and talk to the authors or hear the authors.
[00:53:45] Sandie: Yeah. We also are a hundred percent Australian. Writers fantastic. Which is different to some of the bigger festivals around where there's a lot of international names at those things. And also at those bigger festivals, there's a lot of politics and environment and social issues, which are, fabulous and that has its place.
[00:54:04] Sandie: But we really are about that connection with readers. So we're a hundred percent Australian authors that are coming. And yeah the vibe was one of the things that was in our exit survey that kept coming through, that they loved the access that people had to the authors. 'cause what we don't do is lock them away in a green room.
[00:54:23] Sandie: Usher them to their session, usher them back out again. There was a lot of mingling going on and yeah, there were authors sitting in on each other's sessions last time. There was one night there where quite by accident. We all ended up at dinner and there were facilitators and authors and volunteers and readers all having a tied dinner together.
[00:54:43] Sandie: It really is, and maybe this comes back to the, what comes through my books a lot, that sense of community. We're a community of readers and writers and that's what's really important to the festival.
[00:54:53] Pamela: That was the perfect segue into what I wanted to ask you, and I alluded to this at the beginning when we first started talking, is the kind of heartfelt nature of your stories and the way that readers, connect so strongly to.
[00:55:08] Pamela: What's happening to the characters and the way you create empathy for the characters? So the question is, what would you say is at the heart of your writing?
[00:55:19] Sandie: Hope. I think hope is at the heart of my writing. I try to keep the scenarios within my stories as realistic as possible. You know that it could be any one of us that is going through this sort of thing because I need it to be relatable.
[00:55:37] Sandie: For me, I like being able to relate to characters that I'm reading about. While we may not have experienced ourselves, Hannah's situation where she's homeless, living in her car, thankfully I have not experienced that and a lot of readers hopefully also have not experienced that. So that situation in itself.
[00:55:58] Sandie: May not be relatable, but I think it's realistic enough that we could put ourselves in that position. But the thing that we can relate to is Hannah trying to protect her son Leo, and doing anything she can for her child. Anyone that is a parent knows that emotion. While the situations themselves may not be something that you've experienced, they are something that you can imagine.
[00:56:21] Sandie: And the emotions behind it are something that. Anyone can relate to. So that's how I try to build those stories and at the end of the day, I need to give those characters hope. Because without hope we are lost. And so when people finish reading my stories, I want them to come away with that sense of, it doesn't matter how tough things get, that if you hang on to hope and you surround yourself with the right people.
[00:56:49] Sandie: You will be okay in the end.
[00:56:53] Pamela: I
[00:56:53] Sandie: dunno if that actually answered your question.
[00:56:55] Pamela: You nailed it. We have covered so much ground, Sandy in our conversation, and it's been fabulous. I'm really looking forward to catching up with you on at NBRF, if not before. Yes. And I know readers can find you hopefully if they haven't caught up with you already on tour.
[00:57:12] Pamela: They, there are still some dates, so can they find those dates on your website?
[00:57:16] Sandie: Yes, they are on the website. There's the couple of the later ones I haven't put up yet. The October ones I have not put up yet. But for the rest of the July and August ones, I think they are all up there. So yeah, head to the website and find them there.
[00:57:29] Pamela: Okay. Fantastic. I'll put your website and your socials in the show notes for the episode so people will be able to find you. And they can also go to, is it n brf.com
[00:57:38] Sandie: au?
[00:57:40] Pamela: Dot com au. Okay. To find out about the Northern Beaches Readers Festival. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sandy. It's been lovely to chat.
[00:57:48] Pamela: Thanks, Pamela. It's always a pleasure chatting with you.
[00:57:51] Pamela: Thanks for listening to Rights for Women. I hope you've enjoyed my chat with this week's guest. If you did, I'd love it if you could add a quick rating or review wherever you get your podcasts so others can more easily find the episodes. Don't forget to check out the back list on the Rights for Women website, so much.
[00:58:12] Pamela: Great writing advice in the library there. And you can also find the transcript of today's chat on the website too. You can find details on the website on how to support the podcast through Patreon and you can connect with me through the website@rightsforwomen.com on Instagram and Twitter at WW podcast.
[00:58:32] Pamela: The Facebook page writes for women. Or find me and my writing@pamelacook.com au. Thanks for listening. Have a great week. And remember every word you write your one word closer to typing the end.