MASTERING THE HYBRID HUSTLE with Sasha Wasley
“I just love stories and for me, it’s the story, not the genre that attracts me.”
Preorder THE GHOSTLING
Welcome back to the Writes4Women Podcast! Today Pam is talking to Sasha Wasley, author of THE GHOSTLING. The author of over 16 novels, Sasha has mastered the art of the hybrid hustle publishing in both the indie and traditional spaces. Today she discusses everything from Substack and Tiktok to using Kickstarter to launch a novel. This episode of Writes4Women encourages you to think outside of the traditional pathways to publication!
In this episode…
🎙️📝 This week on Writes4Women, get encouraged to reimagine your pathway to publishing. Pamela Cook hosts the unstoppable Sasha Wasley, diving into her riveting journey as a hybrid author. Don’t miss Sasha’s insights on being resilient in publishing, generating multiple revenue streams, and the exciting prospects of mixing traditional and indie publishing worlds! 🚀📚✨
Timestamps
00:00 Pam’s Introduction and Personal Writing Updates
01:46 Exciting News: Pam’s Backlist and New Publisher
09:26 Meet Today's Guest: Sasha Wasley
30:57 Kickstarter Success Strategies
32:49 Diving into TikTok
41:12 Exploring Substack
49:32 Balancing Multiple Writing Identities
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave a rating and review or consider subscribing to our Patreon for less than a cup of coffee!
Transcript
This transcript is provided as a companion to the audio episode and has not been edited.
[00:00:00] Pamela: Hello and welcome to another episode of Writes4Women. It is July 15, Tuesday, July 15 as I'm recording this, and it is quite icy here in the Illawarra in on the south coast of New South Wales. Mid South coast of New South Wales. And today I have a great guest. We have Sasha Worsley returning to the podcast.
[00:00:20] Pamela: Sasha has been on the pod before when we talked about her release at the time, a caravan, like a Canary, I believe it was called. But we're back today to talk about a whole lot of other things, including Kickstarter, Substack writing under a pseudonym. It's gonna be a really great chat with Sasha and lots of things to, to talk about.
[00:00:40] Pamela: Before we get onto that, I wanted to tell you a little bit about my own personal writing news. At the moment, I am drafting the third in the Black Waddle Lake series. The series that I never thought would be a series in the first place started off as a standalone, and that was my first book, black Waddle Lake
[00:00:56] Pamela: released back in 2012. And I always thought at the time that there was more to tell for Eve's story. And last year I wrote a follow on or a sequel to that, which is also a standalone called Out of the Ashes that has been released on audio already. And I am currently working on the third and final book in Eve's journey, which is called A Place of Her Own. So I'm really enjoying writing that. I've had a little bit of interruption to that process as I have edits to do on a couple of my print books and my backlist that are coming out soon in new editions, and I'm gonna tell you about that in a minute. And I also had the copy edit and proofreading for my Christmas novella, the Christmas contract, which is coming out with Harper Collins in the. Country Farm Christmas anthology coming out in October, so lots has been happening. I am really excited to announce that my backlist, which is currently pretty much unavailable apart from across my heart and or we dream, which were both titles that I self-published, but the other books that I tra published, I.
[00:02:01] Pamela: Between 2012 and 2017 are currently unavailable. I did get the rights back for those books and have been sitting on them and trying to work out what to do, so I'm very excited to announce that I have signed with a company called a publisher called Vinci Books. Vinci are a UK publisher. They were previously known for a little while as Fuse books.
[00:02:23] Pamela: Anybody out there who listens to the Self-publishing show, Mark Dawson and James Blatch may have heard of that company. It's now called Vinci Books and it's a publishing company that kind of partners with indie authors who. Wanna do the writing, but don't really wanna do the rest of it. We don't wanna do the uploading and the, cover design, all, organizing all that stuff.
[00:02:48] Pamela: Mainly the advertising and marketing, which I found to be just not part of my wheelhouse. It just was, has never been something that I can get my head around. I did it. I found certain things that worked, but it changes all the time and you really have to be up on it. And I take my hat off to indie publishers who are really on top of all that stuff because there is so much to do and so much to learn and to keep up with on top of the writing.
[00:03:12] Pamela: So the way it works with Vinci is that you give them a completed manuscript. So that is a fully edited manuscript. The editing and all that sort of thing is, the responsibility of the author. Once you hand that over, Vinci, then go about organizing a cover blurb, uploading to the platforms.
[00:03:29] Pamela: They're primarily digital, but do also do print copies and audio formats for their books. And basically it's a partnership then where we're in it together so I'm really excited about this. It is a kind of new venture.
[00:03:44] Pamela: It's something that I've been really thinking long and hard about. I had my rights back. They were sitting there on the thought of actually going through that whole process again. And as I said, I am all for Indie publishing. I think it is fabulous. It's just. Something that I find quite stressful at times.
[00:04:03] Pamela: Quite draining and , I just wanna focus on the writing. So it's gonna be really good to have that support behind me and to have somebody else taking care of the actual sales side of things. That is why I have been editing and doing some tweaks on out of the ashes for print and also Blackwater Lake, which is going into print close to home.
[00:04:22] Pamela: And the crossroads will be going into print and digital, all those titles again, and. Also cross my heart and all we dream, maybe with new covers. We'll see how that goes. We haven't got to that stage of discussions yet, but it's very exciting and for me the main thing is just about having the books out there and available for readers again.
[00:04:39] Pamela: It's gonna be an interesting process and I'm very excited to see where it goes. If you wanna know more about Vinci, you can look them up online. They do have a website. It's Vinci Books. And you can have a look there and they do accept submissions, so check them out. If you are someone like me who is I guess straddling the indie and tread divide.
[00:05:01] Pamela: So that's where I'm at right now. Other news on the Patreon front. Thank you so much to everybody who's been signing up for Patreon. I've got some fantastic new Patreon family members out there, and they have been receiving my diary of a procrastinator posts, which are video posts like vlogs, there's no set.
[00:05:23] Pamela: Sequence of when I send them out. It's just when I have a thought or something about the writing process that I wanna share. It started out as a story of my procrastination. But now that I am writing again it's really about my writing process, any difficulties that I'm having, how I'm overcoming them, things that are coming to me and about the writing process and I'm just sharing those with the Patreon family.
[00:05:46] Pamela: So they're short videos that go out two to three times a week generally. And there's also the opportunity to ask questions and to comment on the Patreon site, but also to ask questions that I can respond to as part of that vlog. And I'm also sending out links to articles and podcasts that I'm finding really helpful as I go about it.
[00:06:04] Pamela: It is probably about the cost of a coffee per month, $5 a month to be part of the Patreon family supporters. There is a lesser option too if you just wanna show your support for the podcast, which I also hugely appreciate. So thank you to all the Patreon supporters and I hope you're enjoying
[00:06:19] Pamela: those diary entries. While we're on the subject of supporting the podcast, thanks to everyone who has been commenting on the recent episodes, which we've had a fabulous response to the reels and posts that Annie, my gorgeous VA is putting together and putting out there to let everybody know about what's happening on the podcast and to get a little bit of interaction going.
[00:06:39] Pamela: So another great way that you can, support us is, apart from commenting and loving the posts, of course, is by sharing those posts, saving them perhaps sharing them, letting other people know. And also, of course.
[00:06:52] Pamela: Writing reviews of any episodes that you have loved. It's for podcasts. It's the same as Amazon for books. The more reviews there are, the more ratings, the more visibility a podcast gets. So if you are loving any of the episodes, it would be great if you could pop a review on your favorite podcast platform and don't forget that You can also watch the episodes.
[00:07:12] Pamela: Most of the episodes are also recorded in video and go up on the Rights for Women YouTube channel. So sometimes it's really lovely to see the guests as well as just hear them. I also did wanna let people know that I do have a monthly writing group that I run online. It's called the Wild Words Women's Writing Circle.
[00:07:30] Pamela: It's a bit of a mouthful. I currently have five people in that it's usually the second Wednesday of each month. Sometimes it has to be changed for various reasons. And each session we do a short writing exercise, which is just a free writing. Exercise that comes from a prompt that I provide.
[00:07:47] Pamela: There's a mini tutorial on a craft. Topic when it might be editing. It could be getting emotion into your writing. It could be characterization, structure, any number of things that we love to talk about and also that members of the group want to find out more about. I also give feedback on a couple of members work each session.
[00:08:06] Pamela: There's the opportunity to ask questions and to have general chat about the writing life. So it's two hours once a month. I have three spots currently available in that group. I only wanna keep it to a ma maximum of eight, so that it is, an intimate, friendly group. And I know that my current members would love to have a few more people joining us as well as me.
[00:08:26] Pamela: If that's something that you're interested in, have a look on my website@pamelacook.com au. Check out the Wild Words group there and all the information is there on how to sign up. On the course front, I will be running my turn up the tension. Course later in the year, I'm revamping that and I'm also gonna be putting a few on demand courses up.
[00:08:44] Pamela: I'm also doing a few face-to-face workshops. Later in the year one will be at the Northern Beaches Readers Festival, which I'm really excited to be presenting at and to be running a workshop at in September. One will be at the South Coast Writer Center in October and another at Sutherland Library in the same month.
[00:09:01] Pamela: And I may also be doing another road trip with my writing buddy, Penelope Janu, when our Christmas anthology comes out with Harper Collins in October. So lots happening in the second half of the year. I'm going to Romance Writers of Australia conference next month as usual, catching up with a lot of writing pees there.
[00:09:18] Pamela: Hopefully see some of the listeners there. And in the meantime, a few more episodes to come out before I head to Adelaide for that conference.
[00:09:26] Pamela: So let me tell you a little bit about today's guest, Sasha Ley. Sasha was born and raised in Bulu Perth, Western Australia, and holds a PhD in feminist literature.
[00:09:37] Pamela: She likes nothing better than exploring the countryside, going on adventures and discovering new sites, and regularly attends regional and city-based literary events sasha is an advocate for literacy and creativity and runs writing workshops for children and adults, as well as offering mentoring services.
[00:09:54] Pamela: She can't seem to constrain herself. When it comes to genre, though she writes adult fiction. She writes middle grade fiction as Ash Harrier and paranormal young adult novels as SD waley.
[00:10:05] Her debut novel was published in 2015 and she currently has. Over 16 novels published across the various genres.
[00:10:14] Her most recent book for adults was Snapshots from Home and she has an upcoming release, which she is funding via her Kickstarter platform called Gosling. And today we're gonna be chatting to Sasha about that genre hopping about writing under a variety of different pen names and also her recent experiences with Substack and Kickstarter.
[00:10:41] Pamela: So grab a cup. Whatever it is you love to do when you are listening to Writes for Women, pop on your walking shoes and settle in for this chat with Sasha Ley.
[00:10:51] Pamela: Sasha thank you so much for joining me once again on Writes4Women. I think it was a couple of years ago now when a caravan, like a canary came out that we last chatted.
[00:11:01] Sasha: Yeah. Oh my God. I can't believe how long ago that was Now it feels like just a couple of months ago.
[00:11:07] Sasha: So much for having me again, Pamela. I love your podcast.
[00:11:10] Pamela: Oh, thank you. Lovely to have you on. Lots of things to talk about today. But can we start Sasha with a little rundown on where you are at with your novel writing?
[00:11:20] Pamela: I've explained in the intro to listeners that you write under a few different names. Can you update us on where you're at with all of that at the moment?
[00:11:28] Sasha: Yeah, absolutely. So I've tried to narrow it down to two different writing names. Now I do still have some legacy kind of publications out under my old, my first friend name, which was SD Ley.
[00:11:41] Sasha: But all of my Australian titles for adults are written as Sasha Ley. And then I've got my kids' books and my young adult and possibly some kind of moving into some supernatural paranormal stuff under Ash Harrier. So I've tried to contain it to two different names, but I cannot contain my genres though I've got a real genre problem. I've probably mentioned that last time. Yeah, I just love stories and for me, it's the story, not the genre that attracts me. So if something lights my fire. I just have to write it, even if it's completely not what I was expecting to write or what my publisher was expecting me to write or my readers.
[00:12:23] Pamela: We'll get onto what you're writing in those various genres in a minute, but how is your publisher with that? Are you writing in across genres for the same publisher? How is that operating for you at the moment?
[00:12:36] Sasha: Yes and no. So they've been really cool and really understanding about it. The biggest shift was probably the shift from CONT to historical, which I made last year with snapshots from home.
[00:12:47] Sasha: Before that I had written three Australian contemporary romances with Penguin, and then two, again, similar kind of contemporary romances, but more leaning towards the women's fiction genre, which, so less focused on the romance. The romance, a delightful sideline rather than the the guts of the book. And then I went, okay, I've really got this amazing historical topic that I wanna write about. And they were just really cool with it. They said, yeah, okay. We don't think that's too far away from what you've been writing before. There's a lot of crossover in the readerships for those two different genres.
[00:13:25] Sasha: So go for your life. And then we went, all right, let's though, however, stick with historical for the next book at least. So that there's not too much confusion. I'm not going contemporary, then historical, then back to contemporary again, right? Yeah, it's more going to be contemporary than a few historical and then, might dabble in contemporary again after that.
[00:13:46] Pamela: Okay. So your next adult book coming out, your next adult fiction will be historical.
[00:13:51] Sasha: It will. Yes, that's right.
[00:13:53] Pamela: Okay. So
[00:13:54] Sasha: that one sitting with my it's not even sitting with my publisher anymore. She's done the structural edits and sent them back to me. So that's my next job and it's quite a big job.
[00:14:05] Sasha: So yeah, that's going to be take up a lot of my next month. And that one is set in Oxford in 1920s.
[00:14:13] Pamela: Ah, okay. Because I vaguely remember Sasha, tell me if I'm wrong here that your last book, snapshots from Home, was that the book that was inspired by watching an episode of Antiques Roadshow?
[00:14:29] Sasha: You got it.
[00:14:30] Sasha: The one that Sandy Docker and I both watched. Oh.
[00:14:36] Pamela: Oh, that's fascinating. Sandy's gonna be my next guest actually on
[00:14:40] Sasha: the podcast. Oh, you can? Yeah, you can remind her. We actually did a Facebook Live about it. 'cause it was just so funny. It was about a week before my book came out and I was posting about it on Facebook as you do, and then someone said, oh, I just read Sandy Dockers latest, and she talks about the snapshots from Home League.
[00:14:55] Sasha: And I thought, no. That's not possible because I had looked and there were no other books about this scheme. And then I went and looked at his app and I was like, oh my God, that is the weirdest thing ever. And then I was reading a blog post that she had written about how she came up with the idea and she said that she had been watching an episode of Antiques Road Show in 2021.
[00:15:17] Sasha: I think it was or no, it was Covid year. It was 2020. And that she had been inspired. And I just, I couldn't, honestly, I couldn't believe it. I wasn't sure whether I was horrified or delighted at first, but pretty quickly got delighted. I reached out to her and I said, this is amazing. And she said, I have noticed your book.
[00:15:33] Sasha: And yeah, it is such a weird coincidence.
[00:15:36] Pamela: Oh, that is so bizarre.
[00:15:38] Sasha: Yeah. Funny little serendipitous moment.
[00:15:41] Pamela: Yes. We love those in the writing world.
[00:15:44] Pamela: Yes. So when's, when will your next historical be out? Sasha,
[00:15:48] Sasha: so around this time next year according to current plans and yeah, it's the first one that I've written that is not really set in Australia, so it's got an Australian heroin. And she starts on the trip over to England and that was a bit weird for me.
[00:16:05] Sasha: I've actually got just between you and me and all your listeners, I've got about 25,000 words at the beginning set in Australia, and my publisher said that can probably go. Oh, okay. So that's quite a big slash Yeah, that's a huge slash quarter of the book. Yeah. Yeah. She said, oh, maybe drip feed some of this throughout the book instead.
[00:16:25] Sasha: And it's really good advice she had. She is, she's a very good editor.
[00:16:30] Pamela: Okay. And were there any research trips involved, Sasha?
[00:16:34] Sasha: Absolutely. I managed to work out my first smart research trip because all my other ones have been to really one horse sheep and wheat farming towns around wa rough areas.
[00:16:45] Sasha: So this one I went, ooh, I wanna write this book set in a university city in England and that sounds like I'm going to need a research trip. Yeah. I'm, I was actually really hesitant 'cause it was gonna be expensive and, all of the things. But then I went, I have to do this. I can't write this book and not have been to Oxford.
[00:17:06] Sasha: I've been to Cambridge. But for some reason I really felt like this one belonged in Oxford and I'm so glad that I went because it would've been so much harder and less authentic and. Yeah, like basically it unblocked me. I'd written all that Australian section before I went, and then I'd stopped for months and then as soon as I got back, the rest just poured out of me and it was just like a month of sitting and writing and then it was done.
[00:17:33] Pamela: That's amazing. Maybe I need a research trip.
[00:17:37] Sasha: Yeah, I think you do. It's a really good reset.
[00:17:40] Pamela: Yeah. So as your first kind of non non Australian based book, at least in your adult fiction stories, , are you able to talk about the inspiration for this one? I know it's still a way off till we, we get to read it, but what was the inspo for it?
[00:17:55] Sasha: I think I've worked out that I often write stories about, class and social capital and things like that and money and inequality. And I was just grabbed by this idea of this working class girl and my family history is that my grandfather worked at the Midland Railway workshops, which was a really big center of employment in this area where I live now.
[00:18:20] Sasha: There were blue collar and white collar workers there and it was a very. Strong union kind of background and lots of industrial action and so on, but also a big class divide. And so that stuff to me is really, it's in my bones and it's in my veins. So I wanted to write about a working class girl who suddenly gets thrown into a very elite society.
[00:18:44] Sasha: And the way that I worked out I could do that, was to have this quite visionary union man who knows that the key to breaking the cycle of poverty and inequality is education. So he's got a very bright daughter and he gets her a scholarship into a good school. Then he dies, but she's already in the school.
[00:19:05] Sasha: So she finishes her education there. The community rallies a little bit and says, okay, we know that's what Davey wanted for his daughter. So we'll help, we'll make sure that she can finish her education, but right at the end of the process when she's just starting to think about applying for universities her mum in gets an injury and she's got a little brother who's still at school.
[00:19:24] Sasha: So she has to basically leave all of that dream and just go and work. But then. An old investment of her father suddenly pays out and her mom is determined. You always wanted to do this. This is what your dad wanted, this is what you want, we're gonna send you to university. So she manages to get in and she starts at a women's college at Oxford University.
[00:19:44] Sasha: And then of course it's all culture clash and class clash, but it's also a book very much about stolen things. So I'm fascinated by the show and the podcast stuff. The British stole,
[00:19:57] Pamela: ah, I haven't watched it yet, but I've been looking at the ads and I keep thinking I've gotta go back on, I view Yes. Or watch some of these.
[00:20:03] Pamela: Yeah,
[00:20:04] Sasha: it's amazing. And it's all about British imperialism which is also a kind of pet fascinating topic of mine. So I wanted to make it that it's actually a society. She creates a little. Bookish society with some of the other girls there. And there's two Australian girls, one working class British girl and an Indian girl.
[00:20:23] Sasha: So they're all over from all over the British empire, but they come together and they're in this seat of learning facing up against all this kind of wealth, elitism, male domination, and British domination. So yeah that's the story there. Without giving too much more away.
[00:20:39] Pamela: Yeah. No, it sounds really interesting, Sasha.
[00:20:42] Pamela: And yeah, really exciting that you spreading your wings and setting a book in the uk. Especially a historical one. Really look forward to that. Thank you. So let's move on to your, where you're at with your middle grade novels. 'cause I know you've had a couple of those out in the last year I think.
[00:20:59] Sasha: Yeah, that's right. So obviously the release schedule for middle grade is a lot quicker than for adult books. So after the first book, we released book two within six months, and then book three came out a year after that. So that series is now complete. That has done really well. I'm really proud to have actually shortlisted in a couple of awards for those books.
[00:21:21] Sasha: So that was really lovely to get that kind of recognition. Oh, congrats. Thank you, as an author, as, you don't get a lot of pats on the back or recognition. That's a really nice thing about the children's book environment. Yeah, there are a lot more things like that going on.
[00:21:35] Sasha: So I've got another middle grade sitting up my sleeve at the moment, which I'm just trying to work out where that will sit. When would be a good time to. Send that out into the world. That's a historical comedy. So it's a bit of a shift, but it is an action mystery, which is the same genre as I was working in before for the Alice England books.
[00:21:54] Sasha: . And I've decided also to bring my young adult books, which I published originally as SD ley under that Ash Harrier banner. 'cause it just seems to make sense. Especially since, when you think about it, a lot of my middle grade readers are moving into young adult age.
[00:22:11] Sasha: So when they run out of my Alice England books, they'll be interested in maybe some of my young adult novels.
[00:22:17] Pamela: Yes, very true. Very smart. So those novels you, that you originally published as SD Ley they did, they precede your adult fiction writing.
[00:22:28] Sasha: Absolutely. So that was my first book, yep. 10 years ago now.
[00:22:33] Sasha: Which is a shock to me. And very small digital only press. So print on demand. They're based in Canada. They're actually a really good press and they've, they give a lot of young adult writers their big break. Okay. So that was my break into the publishing world. And what it did for me was get me used to working with a publisher to writing to deadlines and writing book series, to meeting readers and dealing with reviews and stuff like that.
[00:23:01] Sasha: But also really good education in marketing my own books because they don't have a big marketing spend. And even in a trad pub, you have to, yeah, spend, you have to do a lot yourself with marketing as an author. But it was really a good learning curve for me to learn how to do that stuff.
[00:23:17] Sasha: And, but since then, obviously. 10 years, I've written 18 books and I couldn't even better look at that first book anymore. It was just every time I opened I would cringe at something in it. And yeah, so it was so wonderful to get my rights. I can get my hands on it and just go back in and fix it.
[00:23:37] Pamela: Oh, I've done exactly the same thing.
[00:23:39] Pamela: And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because your writing style changes so much in that period of time and just everything about the way you approach it. How many books have you tackled so far from your old list?
[00:23:51] Sasha: I've just done one and I'm working through the structural edits 'cause I paid a structural editor myself.
[00:23:55] Sasha: Obviously, once you've had something published, no other publisher's gonna look at it. Unless you like, become a book talk sensation or something like that, and then a publisher might look at it. But as it stands, I'm doing this myself. So I've gone back to a little bit of indie publishing and I loved the process because it literally was like un unpicking, like you, your first scarf that you make when you're knitting and it's full of holes.
[00:24:19] Sasha: It was like undoing that and redoing it without any holes and, making it all perfect and beautiful. But it was also a little bit like writing fan fiction with like characters you love and yeah. 'cause I was just going back in and writing new scenes and changing old ones. It was really good.
[00:24:35] Sasha: Fun, fun. I loved it. I can't wait to tackle the other two.
[00:24:38] Pamela: Oh, that's brilliant. So there's, is that a three book series?
[00:24:42] Sasha: It is, yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:43] Pamela: Okay. And the first one is called Ghost Sling, is that right?
[00:24:46] Sasha: Yes, that's right. Yes.
[00:24:48] Pamela: I've seen the cover and and I'm absolutely. Dying to know about the way that you are putting this out.
[00:24:56] Pamela: Sasha. So you have started a Kickstarter campaign for the publication of Gosling. Tell us all about that. It's fascinating.
[00:25:05] Sasha: Yeah. I was sitting in my path to publish class that I run for a bunch of students in here in WA and I was telling them how I was getting the rights back to my first books and I was thinking about rewriting and republishing them, but it was gonna be expensive 'cause I needed to use a structural editor.
[00:25:23] Sasha: And one of them piped up and said, why don't you do a Kickstarter? And I was like, what the hell's a Kickstarter? So then I went away and did a bit of research and I saw that actually a lot of authors are using Kickstarter now and they're using it to publish a new title or to create special editions of their existing work.
[00:25:44] Sasha: Mostly indie authors, but some. Some actually, like traditionally published authors like Brandon Sanderson for example, who's huge in fantasy. What he did was he had the rights for special editions of his books, even though his publisher had the rights for normal editions. So he put it out there on Kickstarter and said, look, I'm thinking of doing a special edition of these.
[00:26:07] Sasha: I think, I know it was a collection of books, like 12 books or something, or maybe less. And his Kickstarter went bananas, like $12 million or something like that. Huge. No, I wasn't expecting anything like that. But what I thought was maybe I can cover some costs and republish this and then, then I don't have to risk my own finances for this.
[00:26:30] Sasha: And it will show me that there's an audience for it as well, because people want to see it. So I treat it as an experiment, and I started off with a budget of about six or $7,000, which would cover design for the cover, structural editing, proofreading, manufacturer of a small print run, et cetera. Then I joined this group on Facebook called Kickstarter for Authors, and they were like no you don't do it like that.
[00:26:53] Sasha: You, you need to treat this as, okay, I am republishing my own book, therefore, those costs are mine. I need to pay for those things. What I'm doing here is releasing an early edition and getting people to support that and basically they're book shopping, so they're going on saying, I'll pledge $30 for a copy of the soft cover, or I'll pledge $60 for a copy of the hardcover.
[00:27:20] Sasha: And then basically those things are ordered, print on demand through places like Book Vault or Ingram Spark that do those kind of special fancy additions print on demand and any profit. Then that kind of comes in over and above what people order can go towards recouping some of the costs that I will spend.
[00:27:40] Sasha: Yeah, because if you go in with a $6,000 goal. You're much less likely to hit it and then that doesn't look good for you. Yeah. Yeah. So I went okay. That makes sense. It was really hard to change my mind about that. Took me a few days of thinking about it and going, maybe I shouldn't have been doing this.
[00:27:59] Sasha: Then I sat down and did some numbers and I went, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna try that. I'm gonna take the advice of these people who have done lots. So I dropped the goal to 1,355, which is just under a thousand dollars US. And it, it did great. Within six hours it had hit that funding. So we got the green light.
[00:28:17] Sasha: That means that everything's happening. 'cause it's all or nothing. It's Kickstarter a lot of people probably don't even know what Kickstarter is,
[00:28:25] Pamela: no, maybe, yeah, yeah. Go back a little and explain that. Yeah.
[00:28:27] Sasha: Yeah.
[00:28:27] Sasha: 'cause I think some people mix it up with GoFundMe and stuff like that. But it's really not nothing like that. It is. It's basically seed funding. So what you're saying is, if I can get this amount of funding, I am going to release this, whatever your project is, and in my case, a book. And if that funding level is reached, everyone who pledges for a reward get that reward.
[00:28:53] Sasha: If that funding level is not reached, nobody gets charged. So there's no money that comes in at all. Oh, okay.
[00:29:00] Pamela: You've gotta reach that bar that you've set initially.
[00:29:03] Sasha: Exactly. And then
[00:29:04] Pamela: everybody gets whatever it is they've ordered.
[00:29:06] Sasha: Yes, that's right. Okay. And they only get charged if it hits that goal.
[00:29:10] Sasha: So it's hit that goal. So everyone at the end of this process in a week will get charged, but they will also get their rewards. And the more money comes in now. We unlock what are called stretch goals, so they all get little bonuses, things like fancy bookmarks or stickers or bonus content in the book, or we've just unlocked today, about half an hour ago, the special edition hardcover with an alternative cover under the dust jacket.
[00:29:36] Sasha: So that's really cool. Everyone who's ordered the hardcover will now get that.
[00:29:40] Pamela: That's so exciting. Wow. Not, yeah, it's so innovative either. I just think it's fascinating. So basically you set that bar, say 1300 or whatever it is. Yes. Then people pledge. So when they're pledging, say, what would be a rough amount that people are pledging?
[00:29:55] Pamela: Is it the cost of a book?
[00:29:57] Sasha: Yeah, so it's the cost of a book with a little bit built in to cover me for things like postage costs and stuff like that. I kept my postage cost really low, about $5 per item. But the actual is more like if you're sending overseas 20, so I built in a buffer zone to try and cover the shipping. And just a tiny little bit of extra in case, because you just never know. And I think I actually did underestimate the weight of my book. So I'm really relieved I built in that little bit extra, but now we're getting to the point where I actually am starting to recoup some of those production costs which is amazing.
[00:30:31] Sasha: And obviously everyone's also accessing the extra goodies that they get when we unlock things.
[00:30:36] Pamela: Yeah. That's so exciting. And how are you going about letting people know about it? So I know you are quite active on Instagram. You've got your substack, which we are going to talk about as well.
[00:30:49] Pamela: Are they your kind of main channels for letting people know about what's happening?
[00:30:53] Sasha: Yes. It's funny that you should say quite active. I haven't been this active in years. I get on every day and feel like I'm shouting into the vo, but it actually is working. Yesterday I said to a friend, I started to think, what am I doing?
[00:31:05] Sasha: I'm just making an idiot of myself here. Just getting on there and continually talking about link. And then I started to look at the backend of Kickstarter shows you where the sources of traffic are and the sources of gls. Oh, great. So I could see that a lot of people coming from Facebook and Instagram and Substack.
[00:31:21] Sasha: So I was like, okay, this actually is working, so I will keep doing it. Yeah. So I'm on there every day. Basically the advice in that Kickstarter for authors group was Post more Than You Are comfortable with. Yeah, so I'm on there at least once a day, but more likely twice or even three times a day, putting a new post up sharing the content of the book to get people excited about ghosting itself, but also talking about the Kickstarter process so that they can see we are.
[00:31:48] Sasha: Kicking goals and unlocking new things and they're getting extra goodies and, but also just trying to get people's head around Kickstarter because a lot of people don't know what it is. So the people who come from Kickstarter and there are quite a lot, they browse and they buy books on Kickstarter.
[00:32:04] Sasha: They treat it as a book shopping site, which is really cool. Within, so there's lot community itself. Exactly. Yeah. So it's a lot of people. It was originally really big for games, like board games, yeah. RPG content and stuff like that. But it has become much more about books in the last year or two.
[00:32:23] Sasha: But yeah. So they all get it because they're there and they're backing things all the time. But people who, like my mom on Facebook and stuff like that, they're like, what is this Sasha? I dunno what this is. I've gone over and backed you, but I still don't understand it. Yeah, I've been trying to increase people's understanding of how it works.
[00:32:41] Sasha: Yeah. And then, hopefully they'll get introduced to the Kickstarter community and start finding some other cool books there as well.
[00:32:47] Sasha: So hopefully I'm also benefiting them. And I also got on TikTok. Oh my God.
[00:32:51] Pamela: Oh, how's that going? I, you're on TikTok as well, so that's nice. Oh, I'm on it, but I'm very sporadic.
[00:32:55] Pamela: Tell us about TikTok and how that's going. 'cause I know a lot of authors out there think, oh, maybe I should be on TikTok, or, whatever. Yeah. But it's a whole community and it's great. I actually quite enjoy scrolling through and watching a lot of this stuff on there. Yes. But how are you finding it?
[00:33:09] Sasha:
[00:33:09] Sasha: I love it. It's really good fun. It's way more fun than I thought it was gonna be. I was so full of dread when I started 'cause I was like, I don't, I just don't wanna put my face on there. I don't wanna be visible on there. And very quickly you learn that it's not about the polished pretty Instagram.
[00:33:24] Sasha: Look that really intimidates me as well, that kind of influencer look with the beautiful clean lines and all of that stuff that I do not gel with at all. It's much more raw. People sit in their cars and just like post videos of themselves talking about stuff, sand's makeup and hair everywhere.
[00:33:40] Sasha: So that's much more my style. So I went, okay, I am just diving in. I went on there, I posted a very blurry first video in quite a dim room saying, hi, I am here. I'm gonna do Kickstarter and I'm gonna treat it as an experiment. And if you're interested, just follow along. Yeah. And look, it's slow growth.
[00:33:59] Sasha: I'm getting probably, I'm gonna be honest here and say that I'm getting anywhere between 50 and 600 views on a video. Which I have no idea how that kind of ranks. I think that's pretty low. I've only got 200 followers at this point, but I only started it a few weeks ago, so that's not that bad. And I'm treating it more like I am learning here.
[00:34:19] Sasha: I am seeing who my readers are because a lot of those younger readers are on there, and I need to learn that demographic a bit better and get my head around that.
[00:34:29] Pamela: That's right, because it is that demographic of people that you're trying to reach, isn't it? For your book, it's a ya book, it's paranormal.
[00:34:36] Pamela: Yeah, there's a lot of paranormal kind and fantasy readers on TikTok it's probably really a great place for you to be.
[00:34:43] Sasha: Yeah, that's it. So I'm just treating it as a learning journey. I am starting to make a few kind of silly fun videos, which I'll probably look back on in about two months and go, oh, what was I thinking?
[00:34:53] Sasha: And delete them. But but hey, you gotta dive in somewhere, don't you? Yeah. And this, I think it's my, I turn 50 next month and I'm just going, this is my big year of experimentation. I'm gonna try some things that take me right outta my comfort zone. So here I'm
[00:35:06] Pamela: good for you.
[00:35:07] Pamela: That's fantastic. So with the Kickstarter, it's essentially like pre-ordering a book, is that right?
[00:35:15] Sasha: Absolutely. You just nailed it.
[00:35:16] Pamela: Yeah. Except you're paying for a book that isn't yet. A hundred percent in existence, but Exactly. Yeah. It's the same process as pre-ordering.
[00:35:25] Sasha: Yeah. And a little safer, obviously, than Booktopia for pre-ordering. Yes. Can I say that? Exactly. And I think you are often getting something that is new, like it, it's new to the industry. It's not something that the industry necessarily expected. So I think people are attracted to it in that they can find and lift up new voices in the writing community and just discover new books in the genres that they love.
[00:35:50] Sasha: It is a bit like book talk in terms of discoverability and recommendation. So Kickstarter does recommend projects to people based on what they've backed before, so that's quite nice as well. Okay. The algorithm kind of works in your favor. Yep.
[00:36:05] Pamela: Oh, I think it's really interesting and I think it's another way of people looking at how they might get their books out there, isn't it?
[00:36:12] And I love Sasha that you, you have published across a lot of different platforms now. You mentioned the small Canadian publisher that you started with. You've been with, a big t tra five publisher. Yeah. You've done self-publishing, you're with Pantera, and now you're doing your Kickstarter.
[00:36:27] Pamela: I love that you are prepared to jump in there and have a go. And I think that's probably what a lot of maybe authors listening out there, it's something to keep in mind that there's not just one way to get your book out there. There's a whole range of different ways we can get published and reach readers.
[00:36:43] Pamela: Isn't there?
[00:36:44] Sasha: Absolutely, that's what you just said is really wise. And I think, and it's also made me feel quite good because I think sometimes I feel like I'm just spitting into the window, whatever they call it, throwing things around, just trying to make, my, my writing career take off.
[00:36:59] Sasha: But actually it's not like that. It's that I know I love writing and I want to be a published author. There are multiple ways to do that and I'm trying a range of them and seeing what works or whether I can make all of them work for me. And at the moment I re am really happy being hybrid. So I love my publisher at Pantera.
[00:37:20] Sasha: I want to keep publishing Australian adult titles with them. And I also love that I'm self-publishing again, especially now that I know a bit more about being a published author. And yeah, I feel like I can do it better this time. And I know a bit more about. Identifying readerships and writing to that readership and all of that.
[00:37:40] Sasha: So yeah I think hopefully I can make it work with multiple things without losing goodwill in the publishing community. I did run this by my publisher first and said, I wanna do this. How do you feel about it? And they were supportive. They said, as long as it's not crossing over into the zone where we're gonna be marketing next year's book.
[00:38:00] Sasha: Yeah. We absolutely understand why you would wanna do this. Yeah. So that was really cool of them. I'm very lucky.
[00:38:06] Pamela: That's so good. And I guess it helps that you are writing under a different name in that, that other genre in the paranormal Ya. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So it's, and I'm
[00:38:14] Sasha: crossing the streams at the moment.
[00:38:16] Sasha: Just while the Kickstarter's on. Yeah. But that will shift. Once the book is actually coming out in the public realm. I'll be talking as Ash Harry about those books then not social obviously.
[00:38:27] Pamela: So you're cutting back from three down to the two pen names now? Do you find it. Difficult or is there any conflict in marketing those two and being on social media and having different personas? How do you manage that aspect of it?
[00:38:42] Sasha: Yeah. Normally when I'm not doing a Kickstarter, I do try and keep them quite separate and only really on release day would I cross over just to say for example, hi readers, 'cause I've got a bigger readership on my Sasha Ley or a bigger following.
[00:38:59] Sasha: So I'll pop over there and say, Hey, I'm also at Harrier and look, I've got a children's book out. So if your children like these kind of books, please would love your support. But other than that I don't cross over very much. I think the only thing that I have found a little bit more challenging is appearances because people don't know that I'm both or I.
[00:39:20] Sasha: Or they find out on the night or they don't realize that I can also do say kids workshops as well as adult workshops. And yeah. So it's having to reeducate the public, a particular part of the public, which is that amazing librarian community and writing community without confusing people.
[00:39:39] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And do you find you have a lot of opportunities as a middle grade author for teaching workshops, do you find that there's more opportunity there or do, is it about the same? I.
[00:39:50] Sasha: No, it is, it's doubled what I was doing before especially at certain times of the year because you've got that book week and things like that.
[00:39:57] Sasha: So book week is absolutely flat strapped for me. One nice thing is that I can go to library talks now as Sasha and say to the library staff there. Hey, I am also at Harrier, so if you've got any, if you were hoping to do any kind of kids programs in the school holidays and you wanted a creative writer to come in, I'm available and I.
[00:40:16] Sasha: I used to do that when I was first published in Australia. I used to email libraries and say, hi, I'm Sasha and would you like me to come to your library and talk about my book? And I never used to get a reply. But now that I've got a bit more friendships in the community of librarians and all of that, I can email as Sasha and say, Hey, did you know I'm also Ash Harrier?
[00:40:36] Sasha: And I've got these books out and if you're interested in me coming to do creative writing workshops with kids, I'm free during the holidays and all that. And they reply and they say, oh wow, that's awesome. Can we book you? Yeah. So that's been really good as well. 'cause I'm all about diversifying the income streams to make us a sense.
[00:40:52] Sasha: Definitely.
[00:40:52] Pamela: So there's a bit of cross-fertilization there between the two, two pseudonyms if you like. Yes. So they're
[00:40:58] Sasha: good and bad. Yeah. Yeah. Because it can be to manage the two identities. Yeah. And manage deadlines and getting books written and stuff like that. But yeah, the upside is that you can cross pollinate a little bit.
[00:41:10] Pamela: Yeah. Lovely. Of course the other thing that we mentioned a little bit and another way you're getting the word out is through your Substack community. Yes. This is something that I have been thinking about for a while and I do follow a few writers like yourself and Holly Ringland now, and Substack, Natasha Lester.
[00:41:28] Pamela: Emma Gannon, who is a, I think she's a UK author who I follow on there. Yes. It's a great writing community, but I think there's a little bit of, I don't know, confusion maybe about exactly what Substack is. Can we start there with exactly what Substack is? 'cause I'm so sure that you looked into it before you took the leap.
[00:41:46] Sasha: Yeah. I noticed a couple of other people on it, like Monique Mulligan and I think Natasha Lester as well. And I thought, what is this Substack thing? So I went and had a look and I discovered that it's basically a blogging platform. But here's the difference. When you write a post. At the end of it it's a little bit like the old RSS feeds.
[00:42:08] Sasha: Your post is delivered via email to your subscribers. And here's the other difference. You can have paywall posts so you can have paid subscribers. So I think that's probably the two I key things that attracted me to Substack because I have got a growing following for my path to publish program, and I just, I had been looking for ways to deliver that more widely than Perth because most of my classes are on, in person. So I thought, okay, this could work really well because I have got a whole lot of workshop content that I could repurpose as newsletter content. And then I can have the free level and the paid level for people who wanna learn how to be an author. Yeah. So I do that now. I have a weekly newsletter that goes out, which is literally just my book recommendations, what I've been up to, a little bit of news about my stuff.
[00:43:02] Sasha: Things that I've read, watched, listened to, found, just cool stuff. And then I've got another weekly post that goes out on Wednesdays, and that is my path to publish stuff, which is, look at what weird things are going on in this weird world of publishing or how to pitch your books.
[00:43:19] Sasha: Some craft stuff. So character development getting unstuck, all the kind of stuff that authors need. And I've got a growing paid subscription based there, which is amazing 'cause that's another income stream for me. And, but you do have to commit to it. So I don't think you can just hop on and go, oh yeah, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna make squillion.
[00:43:40] Sasha: 'cause you won't, it's very slow growth. I've missed that first boat where people like Emma Gannon got thousands of subscribers. Yeah. And she's earning six figures from her Substack. I got in a bit late for that. And also I didn't have, I guess the following that she had on Instagram that she brought over.
[00:43:57] Sasha: But I do prefer it to a lot of the other social media. I. Platforms because I love long form writing, so it's allowing me to really tell stories and share in depth information about how to be an author and how to get published and all of that stuff. Which I think a lot of authors enjoy.
[00:44:16] Sasha: A lot of writers are readers. Yeah. So it's a good space to meet other writers and readers and Yeah. And
[00:44:22] Pamela: , is Substack specifically for writers or creative. I think that was how they
[00:44:27] Sasha: started it. Yeah. But there's all kinds of I was gonna say Stephen Fry, but he's also a writer, isn't he?
[00:44:32] Sasha: You've got some really huge names. On there. People who aren't known for their writing, and they've also now implemented, podcast capability and video capability and you can do that native in the app. So you can go in and create podcasts from scratch in Substack and then have paywall sections of your podcast and paywall video content and stuff like that.
[00:44:55] Sasha: So it's not just writing anymore. They've got multiple different types. One of my favorite ones that I follow is a queer retelling of Sherlock Holmes, and she just does cartoons and it's great, she doesn't, I think she probably will monetize it at some point once we're all addicted, which I am.
[00:45:13] Sasha: And, but she a free sample of the book she's writing, which is this, graphic novel version of Sherlock Holmes, and it's just brilliant. It's so funny and clever. And I read that avidly every week. If you find your niche and then if you've got some people to bring over there at the beginning, which I did luckily that can really help as well.
[00:45:32] Pamela: So did you have a mailing list that you transferred over to Substack?
[00:45:36] Sasha: Yeah, absolutely. So I had a mail Aite which for a while there, back in my kind of early indie days, I was growing using all those little networks that you'd use as an indie author where you get subscribers in return for free books and stuff like that, or you join promotions.
[00:45:51] Sasha: So I had actually a few thousand subscribers sitting there, but I wanted to only bring the ones over who actually wanted to be there. So I eliminated any who hadn't opened anything from me ever. And I eliminated a bunch of others as well that had lost interest. And then I brought over about probably 1200 and then about 300 of those were bouncing and defunct.
[00:46:15] Sasha: So I've now got just under a thousand subscribers, or I might even have just over a thousand now. And then a portion of a small portion of that paid subscribers.
[00:46:23] Pamela: So what do you think would encourage someone or get them to make the decision to go from a a free. Subscriber to a paid subscriber, what do you think it is that would encourage that?
[00:46:38] Sasha: In my experience, it's often new people. So people who spot my posts on Instagram and follow the Link Tree and go back to Substack and want to read that article.
[00:46:48] Sasha: So they will then sign up for a free sample. 'cause you can get one post free. Okay. So once you sign up, you get your one post free and then they usually tend to make the decision to stay after that. So they obviously feel like they've got value out of what it was they read. So they get there, they read the first, I usually leave two paragraphs available for anyone to see.
[00:47:08] Sasha: And then I put the paywall in, which is just literally a click of a button. And then if they wanna keep reading that post, they have to subscribe properly to do that. Yeah. So I think they're seeing at other places. Some of them are coming from the substack. Website itself, right? So they're brows browsing other people's.
[00:47:26] Sasha: I tend to get quite a few from recommendations of friends. So Sarah Foster has a really good substack as well. That's right. Yeah. And and she's got my Substack has a recommendation on her. So people have spotted that, gone over to have a look and then gone, oh yeah, this looks like good value for me, and signed up that way.
[00:47:42] Sasha: And there's no one answer to that question. 'cause if I knew then I'd have a thousand paid subscribers and I wouldn't have to worry about anything else, wouldn't we all?
[00:47:52] Pamela: So it's really interesting and it, as I said, it's something that I am looking into either as an author or a rights wo podcaster or both perhaps.
[00:48:00] Sasha: Yeah, absolutely. I think that you'd be amazing over there. Yeah.
[00:48:04] Pamela: The only thing that kind of, I am a very erratic newsletter sender. It's supposed to be monthly, but it often ends up, every two or three months. So I guess for me, the time factor in putting something out like. Once a week and being really consistent with it is a little bit of a concern, but how do you find managing, I guess that along with all the other different demands that you've got with your writing time and marketing and Kickstarter and everything else?
[00:48:28] Sasha: Yeah. I think one of the best things about it is that it actually turned me into a regular newsletter writer because I wasn't either, I was really irregular. And I think part of it was that I found all of the email interfaces, the mailing programs quite complicated and quite annoying and I don't know why, but very low engagement, low open rates and all of that.
[00:48:51] Sasha: Whereas my Substack has consistently got around a 30% open rate, which is really good for a newsletter. 'cause newsletters are usually sitting really quite low. And I think just the ease of use, because you can so easily, like Substack is just brilliant for writers. It's so easy to work in. So yeah, I found that I became a regular newsletter writer. It was also really rewarding to have people signing up. So that's keeping me accountable, yeah. When I got my first few paid subscribers, I was like, oh, okay. Someone actually is paying me to write this.
[00:49:25] Sasha: Okay. I will write then I will write it each. Yeah. Yeah. I'm quite a people pleaser, so that probably helps.
[00:49:31] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. And how do you manage your time in general, Sasha? Are you pretty good with your time management?
[00:49:37] Sasha: At the moment everything's out the window because of the Kickstarter.
[00:49:41] Sasha: I've just managed to settle into a bit of editing, but there's no writing happening 'cause I've got no creative energy left at the end of the day after creating all that content. But normally I try and get some writing done first thing in the morning. 'cause that's my. My concentration zone. So I'll wake up, I won't even get out of bed.
[00:49:59] Sasha: Or if I do, it's just to get a coffee and then I'll go back to bed, sit up on my computer and write for up to two hours sometimes. Okay. Yeah. By that point I'm oh my God, I'm starting to feel really guilty 'cause I'm still sitting here in my pajamas.
[00:50:11] Pamela: That this morning I've started writing.
[00:50:13] Pamela: I just did a little post about it actually on Instagram. I've started writing on my iPad using webinar. Yes. And I'm just finding it really easy because it's nice. I, my laptop's quite, it's not huge, but it, you gotta carry it around, whatever. And I just find having the writing in a separate.
[00:50:28] Pamela: Place to where I'm doing everything else is actually motivating me more. . I feel like with my iPad it's so light and portable, I can just even sit down for 10 minutes. And not to say that I couldn't do that on my laptop of course, but it's just this mental thing, but yeah, I was in bed this morning typing on it in my pajamas for a while. Yeah, when it was fabulous.
[00:50:47] Sasha: I think that's part of it for me too. 'cause I got a new Chromebook last year, which is really lightweight, long battery life. So it just sits next to my bed and I just pick it up and start working on it.
[00:50:56] Sasha: Yeah. And as opposed to having to always lug my big old laptop around and plug it in everywhere. 'cause the battery life is terrible. And yeah. So yeah, I think you're right that just having the right device helps as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that's my kind of high concentration focus zone in the morning.
[00:51:12] Sasha: So I get my writing done then. 'cause that's when I need my brain working. And then I try and do all the marketing and the other bits and pieces. After that when I've, when I'm a bit more scattered. Yeah.
[00:51:22] Pamela: Yeah. And you've got your teaching work and things to Yeah. Spot in there as well.
[00:51:26] Sasha: And because, most writers are slightly introverted and I'm definitely in that category, so it takes a lot of psychological energy for me to run a class.
[00:51:36] Sasha: And don't get me wrong, I love it while I'm there, but afterwards I do crash. So I know that if I've got a class in the morning, I'm probably not gonna get anything done for the rest of the day. So I focus on cooking a nice meal or getting the washing done or something. But if it's in the afternoon, the class, I can generally get some work done before I go.
[00:51:52] . Great idea to use those energy levels to actually help you Yeah. Organize your time.
[00:51:57] Sasha: Yeah.
[00:51:57] Pamela: We've chatted about so many things. It's great. We have but and we kind, I think that we touched on a couple of these things earlier, but what would you say to authors out there who they've been writing for a while now, maybe they've submitted to trade publishers, they haven't had any luck, they still really want to, try and get their work out there.
[00:52:16] Pamela: What kind of advice would you give them about, the next steps, and what to do to keep going. 'cause it can be quite, discouraging if you're getting rejections and you've been doing it for a while.
[00:52:27] Pamela: What do you think would be some advice you could provide,
[00:52:29] Sasha: well understand that rejection is actually part of the job and they won't stop. Even after you get published, you'll still be getting rejections from your publisher, from reviewers, from residencies that you apply for lots of different places.
[00:52:43] Sasha: It's not an industry where you can have a thin skin or be discouraged by a certain number of rejections. So there's that. But having said that, for me, I was not a good enough writer when I was pitching my first books. And I realize that now, 10 years in with a lot more books under my belt that I'm getting better.
[00:53:04] Sasha: I'm still getting better with every book I write, and that will probably never stop. So with your first book. It might be great and you might just be not yet have found the right publisher, or it might need an overhaul, but you won't know that until you keep writing something else. So you actually need to keep subbing that one around, but be working on something else while you're doing it, because the next book might be the one that gets the deal.
[00:53:29] Sasha: And then at that point you can then say, I've got this other one to your publisher. And they might go, okay, we want that too. Or they might say that needs more work. But we'll think about that one. Because often that first one you've written that you're subbing around and you think is amazing is not quite there because, and it might not even be anything to do with your writing.
[00:53:46] Sasha: It might be that you don't quite understand the market. Yeah. Or that you don't really know who the books for or that the genre is too mixed up, which all mistakes I've made and Yeah. Continue to make, but it's, I think, yeah, just write something else while you're subbing that other one around so that you're not, you need as many irons in the fire as possible.
[00:54:06] Pamela: Yes. Great advice. And as someone who has previously self-published and who is going down that path again what would you say to people who are considering self-publishing their work?
[00:54:17] Sasha: Yeah. Work out where your book sits in the market. And don't fool yourself if it if you're hoping that it's a bit like this, but you know in your heart that it's not really a bit like this other book, don't try and market it to those readers because they'll be disappointed.
[00:54:30] Sasha: So you need to really find out some comp titles, some com comparable titles that will help you market your book and look, go for it. If you think that there might be a market for your book and you've had absolutely no joy anywhere else or you're a control freak and you just wanna. Do this all yourself.
[00:54:48] Sasha: Absolutely. Go for it and just try it and see, you don't have to spend a lot of money. In fact, I would thoroughly advise you not to spend a lot of money, especially on the first one. And just jump in with both feet, see how it's working for you. I did all that before I got my big five deal. So I, I had tried it and I had decided that I didn't like it, it wasn't working for me.
[00:55:10] Sasha: I now look back and can understand a bit more why. So yeah, it doesn't mean that you're not gonna become traditionally published. It just means that for now you're gonna try an indie publishing process and that's okay.
[00:55:22] Pamela: They're not mutually exclusive are they?
[00:55:24] Sasha: Yeah.
[00:55:25] Pamela: Exactly.
[00:55:25] Pamela: Possible And even some
[00:55:26] Sasha: huge traditionally published authors now are republishing their work themselves 'cause they know they can get a much bigger share of the financial pie, like much bigger if now that they've got a readership. And we've got some indie authors who get tempted over to the traditional publishing world, probably by a much better deal than most of us are getting.
[00:55:47] Sasha: But yeah, they're it does cross over and that's okay, isn't it? Colle Hoover. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I bet she's got a good percentage. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:55:58] Pamela: I'm sure. . The last question that I love to ask my guests, Sasha, is, and we have touched on this, but just to clarify it, what would you say is at the heart of your writing?
[00:56:11] Sasha: Oh I think it must be, this is gonna sound really dry, but issues of social justice, but it's not dry, I promise. It's it's about working out what's fair and what people deserve and and I guess giving people who deserve it, joy, that's something that I'm almost like a god in that way.
[00:56:27] Sasha: I can give people who have suffered from pain and inequality or grief, some happiness.
[00:56:34] Pamela: I love that through the stories. Yeah. Yeah. And readers can empathize with that and be taken along on that journey. I love it. Yeah. It's been so lovely chatting to you again, Sasha, and I'm really been fascinated to hear about your Kickstarter and your substack and everything.
[00:56:49] Pamela: So all the best with them. I'll put the links in this in the show notes for your Kickstarter. Oh, thank you. And where can people find you online if the end on Instagram and stuff, if they wanna connect with you?
[00:57:02] Sasha: Yeah, so if they just search for me on Google as Sasha Wesley or as Ash Harrier, all of those links should pop up.
[00:57:08] Sasha: I've got websites for both. I've got Insta I'm on TikTok as Ash Harrier and I'm on Facebook and all the places. And my substack is called The Book Path.
[00:57:18] Pamela: The book Path. Okay. Check it out everyone. Alright Sash. All the best. We'll follow along and see what happens with Gosling.
[00:57:26] Sasha: Thank you so much, Pam.
[00:57:28] Sasha: It was lovely being here.